I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 02:42:47 PM

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?

HRT can only do so much; some fat accumulation on the face to soften it, breasts and some lower curvature.
I hate to be harsh, but if someone has a strong, manly face with a square jaw, protruding brows and a bony forehead; then all the HRT in the world won't help. FFS is the only option.
Should they be denied HRT until they have had FFS?

QuoteIf you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.

What an utter load of inflammatory bollocks.
As people have said over and over, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to transition!
Sure, you feel that you can't go full time without HRT - that doesn't mean it is a bad (or 'unthoughtful' or 'careless') for someone else to go full time without it.
I put years of 'thought' and 'care' into my decisions, thankyouverymuch.

IMO, some people get so hung up on passing that they forget that they are doing this for internal reasons, not external ones.

Dont make me get my before and after photos out again... hrt did a HUGE amount to me...
as for internal/external tbh, my dysphoria is more how my body looks... my mind is fine! so passing is integral!

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 03:53:11 PM
I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Your statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.
Would you care to address this?
Regardless as to whether or not it is directed at me, personally, your statement encompasses every person who went full time without HRT!
You are stating we are thoughtless and careless.

Would you care to back that up with fact?

P.S. 'Vulgar'? lolwut?

I think there is a provision in the SOC (no time to look it up) that HRT can be administered to help the patient pass in a RLT.  I also seem to remember seeing something that masectomy can be done for FTM for the same reason, also prior to RLT. 
The point of a RLT, as I understand it, is to see how well you function in the new gender role.  It's not a test of your diagnosis or anything else, other than your ability to function in that new role.  In some cases, starting a RLT if you're not passable is definitely going to result in the inability to function in the desired gender role-- you can't use the women's restroom if you get clocked by every single person who sees you.  In some cases (and places) that can be a danger to your health and safety. 
It's unfortunate if the OP can't see someone else, but possibly an appeal to reason might work?

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 04:03:41 PM

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 03:53:11 PM
I do not agree.
We are all, unfortunately, composed of internal and external components. Trying to get them both to conform and complement each other is the point - for me.
You may be as vulgar as you wish; does not make your opinion any more valid.
Besides that comment was not addressed to you, alone, personally, with only you in the discussion, and only for you to read; you , you , you. There are others here.

Your statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.
Would you care to address this?
Regardless as to whether or not it is directed at me, personally, your statement encompasses every person who went full time without HRT!
You are stating we are thoughtless and careless.

Would you care to back that up with fact?

P.S. 'Vulgar'? lolwut?

I'd have to agree with Vex. To say that anyone who *willfully chooses* to do RLT before HRT is thoughtless or careless is wrong, as we all know that everyone is different and follows the path most comfortable for them. Now if you had said (or meant) that any *therapist* that *requires* that you do RLT before HRT is thoughtless or careless, especially when the patient doesn't want to, then I would agree with that point. This may just be a misunderstanding between you two.

Quote from: Jessica L. on December 11, 2008, 06:02:10 PMI think there is a provision in the SOC (no time to look it up) that HRT can be administered to help the patient pass in a RLT.  I also seem to remember seeing something that masectomy can be done for FTM for the same reason, also prior to RLT.

Version 6 of the SOC basically only requires 3 months of continuous therapy for HRT to be recommended. That or you can already be presenting and living FT as your target gender. There's also a provision for people who self-medicate.

Quote from: Vexing on December 11, 2008, 04:03:41 PMYour statement claimed that anyone who goes full time without HRT is 'thoughless' and 'careless'.

I think most of us would agree that therapists who make you go FT before HRT are thoughtless and careless. Perhaps, as SarahR says, this is just a misunderstanding? People who go FT before HRT are bloody brave and have way more guts than I do.

~Simone.

Quote from: Patriciaz on December 11, 2008, 02:15:59 PM
I cannot agree with RLE before any kind of HRT. I think it would be cruel and cause more damage than we already have to deal with. Some of us just cannot pass without the aid of some kind of HRT; it is a serious error in judgement on the part of the therapist to require that. As a TS, I have come to the realization that I need all the available help there is and am not ashamed to say that I could not pass well with just clothes and makeup.
Isn't it enough that we have so many issues to deal with already without adding another and even more difficult task?
If you can get another therapist do that. Or at least find a way to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully. Going out full time before any HRT is none of those things.
Please be careful and remember that you are important and do not deserve to suffer at teh hands of a professional as well as society.

I think the real point of the RLE is to find out whether you can survive even if you don't pass.  I don't think passing is a prerequisite for SRS, nor should it be.  I doubt you think it should be either, but look at what you wrote.  It seems to presume that someone who can't pass should not seek surgery.  If that's what you think ...

Granted, you didn't say "I don't think anyone should do RLT without HRT under any circumstances, not even by choice."  But you seem to have headed in that direction in this thread.  Please clarify whether that is or is not what you mean.

Yes, I do not mind elaborating.
The statement "to allow yourself to transition slowly, carefully, and thoughtfully...." was addressed to Icephoenyx based on her comments. I still maintain that, in her case, the action of the therapist "insisting" or trying to "force" her to do this sounded inconsiderate and without any real concern for her safety or a true understanding of how difficult transition can be for some.
There are other comments here to that effect as well.

In my view, HRT, is the physical aspect of aligning ourselves with the inner desire to become a whole and complete woman. The statement "my mind is fine ..." by Starbuck is worthy of consideration. She seems to have a good grasp of the entire process.
My comments never said "anyone" or everyone". Where did that come from?

As a matter of understanding - I think it is as important to pass as it is to know who you are. That always seems to happen, interestingly enough, when determination is combined with HRT and a willingness to find peace of mind.

This is a very interesting discussion. It is enjoyable to read the various comments regardless the point of view or any misunderstanding.
What I most appreciate is that people here actually want to share opinions which is how we find solutions to various problems.

Please continue. You are all interesting people.
And Miss Starbuck, always be who you are; serious and with a sense of humor.

no, passing is not a prerequisite, but tbh, if you dont want to, id say thats fething weird... HRT helps you pass better if you do not. The op of this thread commented about how a therapist wouldnt prescribe till after rle...  i think most of us agree if you dont pass, you arnt testing anything but your will power... Glenda... rle is not to see if you can survive if you dont pass... that would be cruelty... and frankly just stupid... RLE is not some test of how serious you are, teach you to cope with transphobia or any other notion... its there to see if you really are the gender you feel and if you can live a productive life as it.... If you dont need hrt to pass, its not as big an issue as if you do...

it all comes down here to if you pass or not pre hrt...

Come on ladies.... lets all get down off the drama llama's and stop trampling this topic into powder with misinterpretation of posts...

RLT is meant to make sure you can handle living in that role before SRS is is allowed.
Plain and simple.

Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 12, 2008, 09:14:21 PM
Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

I think the bigger danger is the transitioner finding out years later that youth has passed away and that passing has left the building.  Many of us have experienced it, including MAP and Tree.  I am one.

Will I survive?  Jury's still out.  Will Vexing survive?  Done deal.

That's not to say I think a shrink should deny HRT until after RLT.  I even passed without HRT, back in the day; so RLT without HRT is not necessarily a reliable measure of one's emotional strength, or liklihood of not regretting surgery.  But, if someone has the chutzpah to go RLT all commando and stuff (i.e., no HRT, can't pass without it) I have tons of respect for them.  There's no doubt in my mind that they can handle passing or not passing.

Besides, passing, for those who can do it, is always a choice.  If someone were to find that they could not stand being treated like a woman, they can always out themselves.  Expecting people to adhere to gender stereotypes or stereotypical gender roles is what's broken.

It's about reducing discomfort to a manageable level.  If someone feels like they won't transition if they don't pass, then they have a different set of triggers for discomfort.  In my view, those triggers do not dictate mental health or legitimacy.  I just think anyone who thinks there is one way to do things is being unnecessarily crtitical and/or restrictive.

I hope this all makes sense.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 12, 2008, 09:14:21 PM
Precicely... its a back covering measure incase after srs, said person finds they cant cope as a man/woman/teapot and wants to go back, or is required to.

There's also the issue of those who jump into SRS, regret it, then attempt to sue their surgeons/psychologists and make those surgeons/psychologists more reluctant to ever let anyone else through the system.
It just makes it harder for everyone else to get where they want to be - which is not what any of us want. 

that was what i said...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 13, 2008, 07:55:52 AM
that was what i said...

Not quite; you missed the reluctance factor for future cases a surgeon/psyche might have due to legal issues in the past.

Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 14, 2008, 08:39:02 AM
Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

And no doctor has ever gone against their medical oaths, amirite?

The first "program" (LOL) that I went to they wanted me to jump through hoops for them and constantly prove myself, which in a way was good because I needed to come out of my shell. But they clearly wanted my money or were too concerned about saving themsleves and kept referring to the older SOC in thier thinking, wanting me to make a social transition before ever touching hormones, they held hormones over my head like a trophy to be won only after a loooong time of work.

Once the required 3 months were up I saw that they were probably not going to budge anytime soon. I still stuck with it for another month but then was out of there. Really after the first month I was totally ready and not just thinking about it anymore, but they refused to notice, if they were more skilled or at least more concerned with thier patient's well being they would have. I feel that practice is unethical. It is a tool that is easily abused to the benefit of the practitioner and yes some ppl do need it, but I'm guessing most do not. I'm sorry also for the ppl who fall for the lines of reasoning/dogma/ideology given by the practitioner when it is unnecessary in thier case.

Quote from: Vexing on December 14, 2008, 01:53:46 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 14, 2008, 08:39:02 AM
Never seen reluctance.... that goes against thier medical oaths... but determination to make sure the diagnosis is totally correct? sure.

And no doctor has ever gone against their medical oaths, amirite?

Nitpicking is not really the point...

Well I probably shouldn't say this but back in the 60's I couldn't find a doctor who would prescribe hormones (nobody ever heard of TS). I stole what I could, even bought some veterinary grade hormones, whatever I could get. The last doctor I saw asked me if I had taken anything. I said yes and told him what. He  was floored and said "That;s dangerous! You have to stop!" I said "No." With some consternation he decided it was better if I was on prescribed and monitored hormone therapy than risking my life with the other stuff. Sometimes digging in you heels is productive