Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 06:31:02 PM

Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 03:10:57 PM

Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?

I would think that would be the lowest form of validation.
When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive.

I disagree and I find that statement offensive.

Personally, I prefer to validate myself rather than depend on others doing it for me. And in that vane, I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive as well as the statement about accepting our sexual role.

Now that there's enough offense floating around, let's have a reasonable discussion.

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.

It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.

   it's hard for me to say what my roll is i have always done what is normal for me  and that is the sub roll . "more the girl roll", but thats what i like everyone is diff. so i think the roll is diff. for everyone, and as long as your happy and your partner is to then its all good. its fun just finding your roll right!!!!!!

Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 07:43:58 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.

It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.

Agreed, but it doesn't justify the disrespect towards men. That would just perpetuate the stereotype of a feminist.

Quote from: Kristen on December 17, 2008, 08:32:12 PM

Quote from: Vexing on December 17, 2008, 07:43:58 PM

Quote from: Lisbeth on December 17, 2008, 07:41:51 PM
I find the statement about men being the highest form of validation to be offensive.

It ground my gears also; hence my response.
As a fairly staunch feminist, the idea of a man being the ultimate validating influence...well, it's just bloody wrong.

Agreed, but it doesn't justify the disrespect towards men. That would just perpetuate the stereotype of a feminist.

But I am a very sterotypical feminist! 

Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.

"When guys have a hard-on, they find linoleum attractive."

Back when I still considered myself male, I used to really get angry when people said things like this. I still don't like it because I think it really would be hurtful. I can't say for sure though, because for all I know the reason I disagreed so strongly with that might have been because I am not a man anyways.

Me too, and I'm not that all unhappy about being male, and no, not everyone gets laid.

Maybe validation was not the right word but I stand by my statement, if i find someone
attractive and they find me attractive for my feminine attributes so be it. I'm not
a feminist and never will be and to me it seems odd that a TS would identify as one, but
that's just me.

Amanda

I would think that almost everyone, wants to be considered attractive by at least someone's standard.  And that's pretty good.

Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 10:32:29 PMI'm not a feminist and never will be and to me it seems odd that a TS would identify as one, but that's just me.

Why odd hon? Just curious.

~Simone.

What's wrong with a little validation anyways? As long as we know it is a two way street, (coming from w/in and w/out) and validation isn't everything. But I could use some validation for the holidays please, to keep me warm at night and make me breakfast.

Que sera, sera.

I found my first taste of my gender identity as a child.

I found my deep longing to transition in my mid/late teens.

I may find that during or after transition, I like boys and girls, or jsut boys.

Que sera, sera. It's all about self discovery. Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.

If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.

Quote from: tekla on December 17, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.

I hope that includes me.

Well I have always liked women. Every single detail about a woman just gets me
going.

Men I like as friends but could never imagine a relationship with one or sexual relationship
either.

If it was a TS Girl Pre Op I probably could.

I dont see my sexuality changing as it has always been this way since I could
remember!

Quote from: Pariah on December 18, 2008, 01:51:07 AM
Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.

If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.

Personally, I have issues with that philosophy...Do you drive your car, with the windows painted black, and think; "If I crash or run over someone...Que Sara Sara!" Plus, that you don't need to  put any thought or preparation into what you are doing? 
You sound like a pacifist... "why try, when I can't do anything about any of it anyway?"  " If they get me, they get me, OH!, well!"

Mothers do their utmost, trying to prepare and teach their girls, how to accept and deal with the tremendous responsibility they will shoulder as adult females. They don't just throw them out to the wolves, and say; "Now deal with it!"  "There's no need for guidance or preparation, just do it, and learn."  HA! no way!

Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.

Big or small, life is filled with trails we all have to face and then make decisions about. A prepared mind will know how to react.  A lackadaisical attitude about the needs to own and deal with your sexual prowess and inclinations, is... well,  immature!  Maybe a conservative Bi-sexual like myself, see's things differently.

I owned my behavior, and adjusted as I settled into my new life.  Many TS's apparently don't, and get caught up in major binds later on...especially after they have SRS.  They did not prepare for afterwards..they went into it blind.

I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...

Quote from: tekla on December 17, 2008, 08:37:18 PM
Funny, the real feminists I know never fit anysort of stereotype.

But they do: The fit the stereotype that they don't fit any stereotypes.

Quote from: Always Amanda on December 17, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
.... And is there any bigger validation for a TS than being thought of as desirable and attractive to a man?

Here's my $.02: I agree that's an excellent indication that a T-gal has been accepted as female. As is getting "ma'am'd" -- when she's in jean's, sneakers, and no makeup.

I think a lot of you spat nails when you read that because you interpreted that as a requirement. That is, you thought Amanda meant T-gals must strive to be desirable and attractive to men. I don't believe that, and I didn't read that into Amanda's comment.


To get back to the original post,

Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 17, 2008, 01:53:19 PM
....
And that is the point; how many of the younger TS gals and boys, have given this subject any thought. What is your true heart sexually? It is important to think it through, and come to realizations that you can live with. It can also have a huge impact on your transition as well as your life later.  It did for me...

When I considered transitioning in college, I certainly gave that a lot of thought! And that was a major reason I didn't transition. I was attracted to girls, not guys. Although to be more accurate, it was more that I was utterly repelled by guys. The guys I knew in high school were horrible. I'd slit my throat before getting involved with anyone like them. As for girls ... well, a lot of them were horrible too. But at least a few of them were decent human beings. More than I could say for the guys.

Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 18, 2008, 11:42:52 AM
Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.

Hmmmm... *narrows eyes* I have a hard enough time finding my own answers, let alone other people's.

See rule #15: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html

I'm going to steal one person's viewpoint and use it to lightly beat on some other viewpoints.  But first, I'm going to take a couple of blurbs from Wikipedia.

The first is a definition adopted by academia: "Feminism is a belief in the right of women to have political, social, and economic equality with men."

The second is what I understand to be a somewhat popular mainstream belief: "Many antifeminist proponents say the feminist movement... now seeks higher status for women than for men."

In my judgment, there are some feminists that overreach, but antifeminist misogynism/sexism tends to be more at fault and writes off very reasonable goals that the broader feminist consensus generally adheres to.

So with all of that said, I'd be somewhat surprised if too many people here would be unhappy identifying (at least internally, as a concern of publically identifying would sometimes cause misunderstanding,) as a feminist.

---

Regarding the point of preparation, it can help immensely, but it's not going to take care of everything.  Sort of the goal of preparation is that it'll take something very difficult (like transitioning) and make the task managable.  It's not really designed to make sure things go nice and smoothly, but to reduce the challenges to a managable load.  As such, some effort along these lines is still a good idea.

---

Also, there's something nonsensical about saying someone's reasoning is "that of a man" (with an edge of gratuitous male-bashing mixed in, as if that ever solves anything) and suggesting the person is a pacifist, an identity generally associated with women.

Quote from: Rene' aka candygirl on December 18, 2008, 11:42:52 AM

Quote from: Pariah on December 18, 2008, 01:51:07 AM
Getting self-prepared for an unknown that is the product of a willing change is just like getting a alien-proof bomb-shelter up. You don't know WHAT aliens are truely capable of, so no point in trying to make a shelter against one.

If I find out that I was really attracted to men, then so be it. It may be a mega-shock, but it comes with the territory. Can't stop it, can't "fix" it, gotta live with it, love it or hate it.

Personally, I have issues with that philosophy...Do you drive your car, with the windows painted black, and think; "If I crash or run over someone...Que Sara Sara!" Plus, that you don't need to  put any thought or preparation into what you are doing? 
You sound like a pacifist... "why try, when I can't do anything about any of it anyway?"  " If they get me, they get me, OH!, well!"

Mothers do their utmost, trying to prepare and teach their girls, how to accept and deal with the tremendous responsibility they will shoulder as adult females. They don't just throw them out to the wolves, and say; "Now deal with it!"  "There's no need for guidance or preparation, just do it, and learn."  HA! no way!

Your reasoning is obviously based on a lack of being wise. Also that of a man.

Big or small, life is filled with trails we all have to face and then make decisions about. A prepared mind will know how to react.  A lackadaisical attitude about the needs to own and deal with your sexual prowess and inclinations, is... well,  immature!  Maybe a conservative Bi-sexual like myself, see's things differently.

I owned my behavior, and adjusted as I settled into my new life.  Many TS's apparently don't, and get caught up in major binds later on...especially after they have SRS.  They did not prepare for afterwards..they went into it blind.

I love being a woman, I also respect it, and honor it. Being free at last, does not mean going around unprepared or muddleheaded...

I totally see where you are coming from. I REALLY over-generalized, because I didn't want to seem so abstract. I'm not going to get all detailed, but you are right, for the most part. Although the whole "lack of wisdom" and "view of a man" is a pretty misandristic thing to say. Also, I guess I am a pacifist. I take life as it comes and THEN try to turn it around.

I grew up around women all my life. I've been swamped in the stuff. So, to say the least, I HAVE seen how mothers teach their daughters and prepare them for the world of womanhood. And to be honest, your views are a bit skewed in themselves. To say that my reasoning is that of a man simply because I don't view things in a strictly analytical point of view, or that I AM pacifistic, means that I would most likely be immature about my sexuality. By your standards, SO VERY MANY of the young women I have met in my life would be "Man minded and unwise" because they are very much like me...some more wild and unprepared, unconcerned, and lax than I am.

BUT, I digress. for the most part, I agree. I can't find a way to accurately convey what my previous post was SUPPOSED to mean, but it was, in essence, me stating that I don't mind discovering more about myself, even if it means I have to make some changes based ona newly realised sexual preferance or attraction.

I'm sorry if I offended you in this second post of mine; that wasn't an intention, if it does happen.