Quote from: Northern Jane on December 23, 2008, 06:39:34 AM

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:22:12 AMThe ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

I think it would be very difficult to find a doctor who would perform any procedure that would have a NEGATIVE impact on a person's ability to function as a part of society.

Since when does having HRT/surgery have a negative impact on a person's ability to function in society?  Even if somebody was still living as their birth-sex at the time?

I think its important to recognise that HRT/surgery won't in themselves make all a persons problems go away.  And in themselves aren't enough to make somebody suddenly be able to fit in and function in society in their gender.  But i wouldn't imagine it making a transsexuals problems worse.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 22, 2008, 07:46:42 PM
Gender steriotypes is a phrase bandied around here, and too often  imo, mostly by transwomen complaining about things, things they feel are 'degrading' or 'too steriotypical' erm, did you ever consider things are a steriotype in some caes, because they just are fact? that they DO happen most of the time?

Gender stereotypes themselves aren't so much the problem.  People making others feel like they have to fit those stereotypes is.  No matter how many women do fit a given stereotype, there is nothing wrong with the few that don't.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 22, 2008, 07:46:42 PM
Ill tell you one thing, for most transwomen, you cannot afford to rock the boat by breaking the norm, yes... normal does exist... and im afraid normal is a forgotten concept here, its the huge part of passing, and what rlt tries to teach ive begun to find. It tries to settle the person  into thier... for want of a better word, and forgive the use, desired sex... lets face it, you werent raised it, you dont know how to be it... theres a lot more to being female or male than being it in your head, if you dont know how to be it outside, you're screwed, and rlt is there as a prooving ground for you in the world... to try and let you learn to interact normally with people... to become a normal, cohesive happy person. Some parts of normality apear steriotypical to some here. I'm affraid that its just tough, they cry about not fitting in, and then talk about shunning gender steriotypes, and dont quite know themselves what a steriotype is...
its like the fisherman who belives 90% of the fish is skin and bones, and removes that, his meal is not fulfilling, and he is left wanting.

If you are a woman, ie you identify as female, particularly if you have identified as female since a very young age, what would you need to learn about living as a woman.  Surely you already have all the 'inate female traits' (if they exist) and have picked up on the social gender role stuff through living in the real world with women for however long you've been alive?  I don't get why this would be such a mystery.

You don't need to be 'normal', to be a cohesive happy person thanks, nor do you need to 'fit in' to somebody else's view of how you should be have.  It seems you either don't know what a stereotype is or don't realise what aspect of gender stereotypes is the problem (see my statement above).

Ignoring that for a minute, you think trans people need time to learn how to live in their new gender role...  Why do they need to have their original genitalia to do that?  Why do they need to go through that learning process before surgery rather than after?  I don't see how this protects anyone other than misguided cis people.

"and im afraid normal is a forgotten concept here, its the huge part of passing"

My experiences run very counter to this.  I think what tends to out people is blatant physical traits (including voice) that don't match the gender they're trying to pass as and/or looking uncomfortable or like you're putting on a drag act.  Do non-gender normative cis women have their gender/sex routinely questioned?  No, unless their physical appearance is sufficiently masculine.

I outed myself as being gender variant on a group therapy course recently and most people there seem to think I'm on the FTM spectrum.  Normal is a big part of passing only if your appearance is borderline and you wish to avoid any unwanted attention.

Quote from: Northern Jane on December 23, 2008, 06:39:34 AM
I think it would be very difficult to find a doctor who would perform any procedure that would have a NEGATIVE impact on a person's ability to function as a part of society.

What constitutes a 'negative impact' for a given person is a complex thing, and isn't solely determined by functioning in mainstream society.  That said, I function much better in society as a happy genderqueer weirdo than I ever did as a miserable guy. As Jenny said, SRS has little or no bearing on people's ability to function in society anyway, unless your job involves getting your junk out.

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:22:12 AM
I agree with what you said Starbuck.  I think that RLE is a necessary part of transition (for a transsexual anyway).

But still that isn't the same as making it a requirement for HRT particularly or even surgery.  It might be necessary if you are ever gonna fit into the world we live in, and to have a decent life.  But why should it be necessary for HRT/surgery?  The ability/willingness to live as a functional part of society isn't a requirement for most other medical treatments.

How many other surgeries change ones ability to function in society of flip it on its head more than changing gender socially?

Andra: you have a point, but i disagree, normal is still relevant, to many of us, its the reason we transitioned in the first place, and as for traits... true, can be so, but lets not be so presumptious to consider that inante behaviours are enough... it takes natal females years of learning to fit into society as functional women... why would transwomen with no background be able to cope straight off without some equalisation? Not saying they need to learn to suck eggs like a girl ofcourse XD

I'm late getting to this thread, but I just finished reading it through from the beginning. Quite a few great ideas, and not a little bit of disagreement. Thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

Starbuck, I'm amazed at how similar we are in our thoughts on these subjects. I suspect we could be good friends. Feel free to PM me, ok?

Attempting to stay on subject (as the rest of the conversation has already covered my thoughts, so far), I'd like to give my opinion on HRT and RLT. I believe that anyone that has sought therapy and been "diagnosed" as having gender dysphoria, and who is ready to accept the effects of HRT, should be allowed to start the regimen. There are several months at the beginning before the effects are permanent (well, unless you're talking T, which has immediate and irreversible effects), and this time can be often used to determine if hormones are even right for the person. Many people find that it makes things worse, and pull out completely. I have also met some "serious crossdressers" who are on hormones, and will go no further towards transitioning. They simply find the balance they need, and that's what all this is about, isn't it?

As for RLT, or RLE as I prefer to call it.... well, it was my understanding that it was simply a requirement put in place to give the transitioner time to learn to live as a female, and make sure they could handle it. It's quite an enormous change to one's life, and has it's own set of unique issues. I have personally met people that have failed at RLE, even after several years of being FT, and have gone back to living as men. They just found that they couldn't accept the new role, regardless of their personal gender. It's not for everyone, no matter if you're TS or not. Everyone is different, and many find a balance point for their GID that does not require fully transitioning, or even living FT. For some, giving up the male privilege is just not something they can handle.

As for requiring RLE before HRT - well, that's just hogwash, imo. There's such a wide spectrum of needs for trans people, as not everyone requires the same help, path, or has the same end point... it just makes no sense to require someone to go out into the world looking their worst, in order to get permission to start a lengthy process like HRT. I understand that some say 'well, there are side-effects', and yes, there are. But if you go off the hormones, especially if you're only on them a short period of time, most of the changes are not permanent (except in the case of T). But the benefits of the hormones are just amazing. Mental clarity, changes in perception, feelings, sensation, sexuality for some, and then all the physical changes that only help you to be gendered female when you are out trying to learn to live as a female. I started hormones after dressing for only 3 months, had FFS after 5, went FT at 5.5, and have never looked back. For me, this was what I should have done years ago. But that is not the case for many. I know of many girls that are on HRT for 6+ months before going FT (some for several years) - this only helps them integrate more smoothly when the time is right for them.

Every therapist I've heard of in my area only requires 3 months of therapy, and nothing else, to start hormones. Now, I don't know that I necessarily agree with that approach either, as I have met people who were still questioning whether they were actually trans, and yet started HRT. Some waffled for months, even as they developed breasts. Personally, I feel that is wrong. But, since the effects of E are not immediate, I guess in 'most' cases, no harm no foul. Still, I disagree with this approach.

I believe that both HRT and RLE are essential before undergoing GRS. Yes, one can still live as their birth gender after GRS, if they so choose... but changing your genitals is nothing short of a complete life-altering event. It affects SO much more than just what's in your pants. Well, unless you have no intention of using what's in your pants, I suppose. Preventing regret should be key to the process, and I believe that is why the standards are in place in the first place. They are certainly not fool-proof, as the human condition adds a unique uncertainty to everything we do - but they try.

Rebecca xxx

Quote from: Starbuck on December 23, 2008, 03:53:39 PM
How many other surgeries change ones ability to function in society of flip it on its head more than changing gender socially?

you think that SRS changes ones gender socially?  I'd have thought that going full-time/RLE is the process in which your "social gender" is changed.  In life relatively few people actually see whats in your pants!

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 05:15:10 PM
I believe that both HRT and RLE are essential before undergoing GRS. Yes, one can still live as their birth gender after GRS, if they so choose... but changing your genitals is nothing short of a complete life-altering event. It affects SO much more than just what's in your pants. Well, unless you have no intention of using what's in your pants, I suppose. Preventing regret should be key to the process, and I believe that is why the standards are in place in the first place. They are certainly not fool-proof, as the human condition adds a unique uncertainty to everything we do - but they try.

Is changing genitals really that life-changing?  It really only effects your sexual relationships (unless you work in the sex industry i suppose).

For a non-transsexual person, or somebody who later has regrets, to go through with SRS, would result in a situation of gender dysphoria much like ours.  So to say its better to be really cautious and denying/delaying loads of people surgery for the sake of a few who might regret it seems a little odd to me.  Since the consequences for a person who regrets surgery are similar to the consequences for a transsexual who is denied surgery.

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 06:25:16 PM
Is changing genitals really that life-changing?  It really only effects your sexual relationships (unless you work in the sex industry i suppose).

For an asexual person all it would mean would be either standing up or sitting down when they pee.

Personally, SRS is way down on my list of priorities. The money involved, the time off work and the potential risks...all of those make it a less than desirable procedure at the moment. I'd rather spend the cash on a deposit for a house.

But for many, it is something that is required to make one feel complete, whole. And for someone very much sexual, like myself, and attracted solely to women, it is mandatory for having a sexual relationship as a woman. The risk is worth the benefits, at least for me.

And yes, it is life-altering. True, most people won't ever know what's in my pants, but I do. And anyone I choose to have a relationship will. Without SRS, I am a freak that mostly only a small number of men can see as a sex object. With it, I am a complete woman, and can be treated like, and perform as such. Not by all, but by those who can accept me for whom I am.

Sure, if you fixate on it, not having a vagina will drive you nuts.
99% of my waking day, I don't even think about what's in my knickers.

You're a complete woman already. Vagina isn't what defines femininity.

I completely agree, and I'm not fixating on it. But just because you have no desire to use what's in your knickers doesn't mean nobody else does. And having the wrong tools for the job just doesn't work.

Yes, I am a woman now. Happy, successful, and attractive. I have integrated into society quite well, and have absolutely no regrets. However, if I am to have a relationship ever again, which is something that is very important to me, having the correct parts, and being a completely 'physical' woman as well and mental, emotional, and societal, is a requirement.

I did not judge you. Please don't just me. Or others. I am most certainly not alone in these thoughts...

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 06:39:33 PM
And yes, it is life-altering. True, most people won't ever know what's in my pants, but I do. And anyone I choose to have a relationship will. Without SRS, I am a freak that mostly only a small number of men can see as a sex object. With it, I am a complete woman, and can be treated like, and perform as such. Not by all, but by those who can accept me for whom I am.

My point was that it is living as a woman that makes you a woman - that is the life altering part.  Having surgery on your genitals doesn't make you a woman!

And i am pre-op, but am still treated like a "complete woman" by everyone i know, including my girlfriend.

And maybe its just been the people i've gone out with, but is sex really that life altering?

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 06:54:28 PM
Yes, I am a woman now. Happy, successful, and attractive. I have integrated into society quite well, and have absolutely no regrets. However, if I am to have a relationship ever again, which is something that is very important to me, having the correct parts, and being a completely 'physical' woman as well and mental, emotional, and societal, is a requirement.

Have you ever considered that you might find someone who is attracted to you and wants to have a relationship with you, regardless of what is between your legs?
If your potential partner requires you to have a vagina, then perhaps they aren't actually what you are looking for.
I certainly would never date someone like that...

Isn't this about what makes us feel complete, though? My existing parts have never been something I've enjoyed using. Why would I want to perpetuate that lie for the rest of my life? Transitioning was about being who I am, not who society wants me to be because of my DNA.

But to answer your question, yes, I've considered your option. However, I have absolutely no desire to use my parts as is any longer. I only did so up until now because that's what I had to work with. I am a different person now, as most of us are. It's time for me to feel complete for a change.

In addition, almost all lesbians do not like male genitalia. Yes, there are a few that do, but most do not. And since I don't like men, that's not an option. As for bi girls, again, I don't like my parts. They aren't "me". Seems like an obvious solution to me....

Surgery for some people is about feeling "complete" and that is understandable.

But the point i've been making, and i think Vexing is as well, is that while surgery may be necessary to be complete, your life isn't really changed that drastically by surgery.

Surgery doesn't make you a woman, being a woman does.

I believe I've made it abundantly clear that I agree on that point. But, I would disagree that my life won't be drastically changed by surgery. At a minimum, I would be able to have a sexual relationship again, which at this point, I cannot. The decision to have or not have surgery is a personal one, and one that is neither right nor wrong for any of us, and can be made for a myriad of various reasons. I am a woman, with or without GRS.  I was simply responding to the general comments made about how unimportant the surgery is, and how it should be unimportant to all. Time to get back on topic?

Quote from: Jenny on December 23, 2008, 07:41:39 PM
Surgery for some people is about feeling "complete" and that is understandable.

But the point i've been making, and i think Vexing is as well, is that while surgery may be necessary to be complete, your life isn't really changed that drastically by surgery.

Surgery doesn't make you a woman, being a woman does.

Not in the wish to be "complete" as a woman in the biological sense. I think the whole, "What it takes to be a woman," Argument is dumb cause everyone has different semantics for everything.

One person thinks woman means vagina-owning. Another thinks woman means the social roles.

And lots of stuff in between.


Maybe we should have a different official set of words. Like "SMLORPH" is the action of living as a woman, and Female is having a vagina. Honestly, my problem when I first started this entire thing was the physical part. The mental and social desires have only come in after that. I still lose sight of it too. The fact that the physical, to me, no matter how shallow is the BIG FREAKING PROBLEM. Only now its even MORE of a problem cause I socially think a lot more like a girl does, or "SMLORPH!!!"

Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...
The rest i find is interesting, what defines a woman?

Let me tell you how i feel, ive been full time now since June 07 i think? Either way, ive been living as a girl for a long ass time (hey im 21 ok? it feels like it)
My point is this, Hrt has done wonders for me, its made me feel human, like a real functional person. I attended boys school from the ages of 2-18, i had very little social female interaction outside my sister and mother till university, and when i transitioned... but somehow i socially adapted and integrated quickly and fully. 'Well you're a mental woman' some might say. True imo, But it works nicely for my next point dispite seeming like me felating my own ego...

Andra said that a rlt isnt needed... 'real' ts women shouldnt need to ajust, or learn to be women, i mean... its all there right? I disagree... being female is more than whats in your head, just as being male is. There is a mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances... allsorts... And the rlt and transition is more than learning how to pass to 'get away' with being seen as a girl/woman in the m2f case.

Its to correct the mistake for the paitent, and for them to LIVE as the gender they are inside, I've heard some on the irc here say 'oh i was raised as a tomboy not a boy' well unless your parents thought you were female from the off, i doubt it. Very few to no m2fs are raised female, granted depending on age of transition. RLT/E is a time to learn things... One thing that needs learning for a lot of m2fs is that the male attitude of 'i dont need help, asking/admitting will make me seem week' is as out of place as a chicken in a driving school...

This forum often decends to fighting over issues, and argument, often i dont think either side knows what the feth is actually being argued over... its certainly not the topic posted in 99% of the time...

As for the complete/ real woman debate... how the feth did we get onto that joyful pile of unexploded ordnance?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 01:59:43 AM
Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...

My point wasn't that surgery should be done at anytime, my point was to do with the process in which a therapist decides that it is right.

In almost all circumstances, i think that a trans-person would be better of doing RLE/HRT before having surgery.  But i also think that as adults, we are able to make decisions about what is best for us.  What i disagree with is the current situation of having to do one or two years of RLT (as defined by your therapist), after which you are deemed to be suitable for surgery.

The RLT has a fixed length, its got nothing to do with whats right for a patient.  And theres no rational reason for saying that at the end of this RLT is the right time for surgery - it could be the right decision before those years are complete, or it could be better for the person to wait.  Yet this fixed RLT system is what we use to say what is right or not for a person.

Quote from: Rebecca Liz on December 23, 2008, 08:37:11 PM
I believe I've made it abundantly clear that I agree on that point. But, I would disagree that my life won't be drastically changed by surgery. At a minimum, I would be able to have a sexual relationship again, which at this point, I cannot. The decision to have or not have surgery is a personal one, and one that is neither right nor wrong for any of us, and can be made for a myriad of various reasons. I am a woman, with or without GRS.  I was simply responding to the general comments made about how unimportant the surgery is, and how it should be unimportant to all. Time to get back on topic?

I have never said that surgery was unimportant (and please do reread what i've written if you think that i have).

My point was that while surgery is important, in the grand scheme of transitioning, surgery isn't the most life altering part of it.  I think that RLE is the most life altering part.  It is where you're interacting with society as your true gender.  And in starting RLE, you adjust to living as a woman (or man for ftm), and i think that this really is where a trans-persons life is most profoundly changed.

My point about sexual relationships, is that surgery may change drastically your relationship with a partner, this is just one person.  I don't think it alters drastically your interactions with society as a whole.

It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. This topic is when hrt should be prescribed.. but ill ignore that... seems the trend... RLT/RLE is useful... it does serve a point, Granted, in some cases it is less worthy... me for example... ive been full time nearly 2 years, do i need to learn to live in my desired gender? answer? not really. But not everyone is in this case... Most people havent... so it serves a point...why should surgery be performed at any time? the point is the therapist decides... rlt is a period of assesment to see if the person is apropriate for that permanent step...  As sure as you are jenny... not everyone is, and the therapists are there to help and guide... fixed period of rlt is the only way to be fair... deciding one is perfect straight off, and another must wait longer is unfair... a fixed period is just fair...
Look,  you really need to stop looking at things so emotionally... you might WANT surgery tomorrow. but Im affraid that the system doesnt work that way, and never will. The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.