Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 08:29:53 AM
It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. This topic is when hrt should be prescribed.. but ill ignore that... seems the trend... RLT/RLE is useful... it does serve a point, Granted, in some cases it is less worthy... me for example... ive been full time nearly 2 years, do i need to learn to live in my desired gender? answer? not really. But not everyone is in this case... Most people havent... so it serves a point...why should surgery be performed at any time? the point is the therapist decides... rlt is a period of assesment to see if the person is apropriate for that permanent step... As sure as you are jenny... not everyone is, and the therapists are there to help and guide... fixed period of rlt is the only way to be fair... deciding one is perfect straight off, and another must wait longer is unfair... a fixed period is just fair...
Look,  you really need to stop looking at things so emotionally... you might WANT surgery tomorrow. but Im affraid that the system doesnt work that way, and never will. The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.

That is my point, RLT is treated as a period of assessment.  I agree that RLE is necessary as a part of transition.  I don't agree that it should be necessary as a period of assessment for either HRT or surgery.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't you still on a waiting list to see a specialist?    So haven't officially started RLT yet, despite being fulltime?  Doesn't that make you a perfect example of why the system is so meaningless?

A fixed period for RLT is equitable, but it goes against the idea of a therapist okaying hrt or surgery at the point at which it is right for the patient.  Everybody starts therapy from a different point, and progresses at different rates.

I haven't been arguing for people having hrt/surgery right away.  I've been arguing that hrt/surgery should be authorised when the patient is ready for it.

And for the record, i've been full-time since April 07, and my therapist has already decided that i have past my RLT and that i'm good for surgery.  (I've left England and there is only a one year RLT requirement here)

You'll notice i actually answered your queswtion in my post... shows how much you read ><

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 10:17:02 AM
You'll notice i actually answered your queswtion in my post... shows how much you read ><

You wasn't particularly clear in what you wrote.  Which is why i added question marks, not as questions, but because i wasn't completely certain that i had remembered/understood your situation correctly.

Jenny, it sounds like we're mostly on the same page with all this after all. I was actually mostly responding to someone else with my previous post - sorry you thought I hadn't fully read yours.

For the record, the process has moved extremely fast for me, personally, and I have been one of those that has been lucky enough to slip into living fully as a female with little to no adjusting. It was a very natural move for me. I am not even close to a year RLE, and have been approved for surgery by both of my doctors. This is a case where the therapists actually did do what was right for the individual, and not just stuck to the strict guidelines. Due to the extensive waiting lists, I will more than have my 1 year under my belt by the time my surgery date actually comes around. So, in the very unlikely event that something causes me to determine that this isn't right for me (like there's any chance that will happen), I have plenty of time to change my mind. Having said that, I know what is personally right for me, have never doubted it, and am more than happy to be living my life as a well-adjusted, loving, caring, intelligent, and attractive women. And with that, I'm off to a reunion party.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 01:59:43 AM
Jenny: You miss my point, you said srs should be allowed any time... well, if its before its decided its right, it MIGHT ruin someones life...
The rest i find is interesting, what defines a woman?

... being female is more than whats in your head, just as being male is. There is a mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances... allsorts... And the rlt and transition is more than learning how to pass to 'get away' with being seen as a girl/woman in the m2f case.

Its to correct the mistake for the paitent, and for them to LIVE as the gender they are inside ...

As for the complete/ real woman debate... how the feth did we get onto that joyful pile of unexploded ordnance?

I know your point was directed at Jenny, but please let me ask you this:  If a self-defined MTF did RLE and said they decided they did not want to live in the female gender role but still wanted surgery, do you think they should get their wish?  In other words, should success in RLE be a requirement for SRS?  And if someone said they wanted SRS regardless of whether they ever passed, should they be allowed to skip RLE?  If not, why not?

For the record, I think the "complete/real woman debate" keeps appearing because of the perceived importance of "mass of behaviour, ettiquette, social nuances," etc. and that conforming to the female gender role is a prerequisite to something or other.  That's why people keep pointing out that there are many natal women who don't conform to the female gender role, and question why an MTF should even want to try to do that, much less experience success at it, as a prerequisite to SRS.  And I think it is on topic because of the question: why should it NOT be a prerequisite for HRT and yet be a prerequisite for SRS?  And you MUST realize I don't think it should be a prerequisite for either of those things.  I'm just saying.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 24, 2008, 08:29:53 AM
It depends, how many transpeople go to a therapist ready for surgery?
The point is adults regardless... you dont know best... the therapists are the experts. Thats why we go to them... The medical process for transition is structured for a reason. ... The medical world revolves around procedure, its there to keep them, and you safe.

Maybe I've misundersatood, but I think you are WAY too deferential to medical authority.  That issue is important to me because I was like that when I transistioned at around your age.  I took the MMPI and when my therapist got the results he said, "The only thing I see that is a potential problem is that you are too deferential to authority."  I see now that his point was that I have to take responsibility for my own transition, and not look to them to tell me whether it is right for me.

Someone pointed out to me that we all are self-diagnosed and self-treated, really.  The SoC are a rather meaningless framework that fits no one's needs perfectly.  Is it better than nothing?  I'm not convinced.  If the SOC lead someone to conclude that SRS is right for them, then the SoC have been harmful.  And I don't think it is a coincidence that those who regret transition by and large have complied with the SoC to the letter.  I think it could be a problem that they put too much faith in the SoC and perceive justification through their compliance with the SoC and the resulting external validation from medical authority figures.  Do you see where I'm coming from?

Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

as for the sucessful rle before official.. happens a lot.
Me? deferential? no, i know where medical authority has its place... if i was deferential id have stopped self prescribing hrt when my gp told me not to

So mom, that's another "Do as I say, and not as I do thing again?"

No... this topic is about people who are seeing therapists... and in the process

if you were in this situation tekla and had to wait 6 years with not even SEEING a therapist or even starting hrt or rle, youd do things differently too hon, i was certainly not going to sit twiddling my thumbs...

But I don't have to, should I chose that route.  If I can pay for it, I can get it, its pretty much the American way, money is always a loophole.  I know people who have gone from 'discovery' to SRS in under a year, with FFS and HRT along the way.  Just a matter of funds and determination.

american way?  its the global way... i just cant afford any other route... so forgive me if i dont bow to your nations capitalist paradise...

Its not paradise for a lot of people.

Like we both said... money makes the world go round...

That it does.  The old golden rule, who has the gold makes the rules.

 Too be honest with you starbuck (though i doubt u'd like it) i'd have just moved to scotland where the wait is much less.  (18 months waiting list, though 3 or 4 months if you are happy going on the cancelation list, and a 1 year RLT instead of 2 years).  *shrugs*

With a postcode lottery health service, sometimes it is just better to go to a county where the resources are present...

That takes for granted that one can move... and isnt stuck with her only accomodation in the world tied to being at university where i am... i just cant afford it.

I think the problem stems from it being the only deal in the DSM that is self-diagnosed, and if you can do that, why can't you also choose the cure?

It gets pretty tricky if no one can dispute the claim.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 25, 2008, 03:24:56 PM
Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

From your response and previous posts, I gather that becoming "normal" is, in your view, the primary, and perhaps only, legitimate goal of transition.  The happiness of the individual is of no consequence.  Also, I must assume you have a problem with non-ops, since "men intentionally having vaginas" describes non-op FTMs, and is, in end result, no different than "men getting vaginas."  So I'll ask you the same question I ask those who have a problem with all, and not just some, T people.  Why are you so mean?

Quote from: glendagladwitch on December 29, 2008, 07:39:08 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 25, 2008, 03:24:56 PM
Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... they shouldnt... men getting vaginas is just weird...

From your response and previous posts, I gather that becoming "normal" is, in your view, the primary, and perhaps only, legitimate goal of transition.  The happiness of the individual is of no consequence.  Also, I must assume you have a problem with non-ops, since "men intentionally having vaginas" describes non-op FTMs, and is, in end result, no different than "men getting vaginas."  So I'll ask you the same question I ask those who have a problem with all, and not just some, T people.  Why are you so mean?

Much, much agreed. Also, all trans people can be labelled 'weird' by someone with a closed mind.  This sounds like a classic case of pulling the ladder up behind oneself.  A persons right to do what they need/want to do with their own body should never, ever, be dependent on the comfort levels of the close minded. If it were, none of us would be permitted to access treatment.

I disagree... there has to be SOME limits... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to, sound biggoted? go write to your mp... im afraid Im as tollerant as i can be,and will tollerate a lot, but everyone has thier limit, anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:07:34 AM
I disagree... there has to be SOME limits... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to, sound biggoted? go write to your mp... im afraid Im as tollerant as i can be,and will tollerate a lot, but everyone has thier limit, anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

"sound biggoted[sic]?"

Yes, absolutely it does, and hypocritical.

Your tolerance level is apparently small enough that despite understanding gender/body dysphoria due to experiencing it yourself, people's medical needs in that regard aren't valid if they are too 'weird'.