By that standard, yes, im a biggot, sue me...

I do not understand gender/body dsyphoria as a whole topic... i doubt anyone on this board does...

I know how it feels to be female, trapped in a male form, how the hell does that qualify me to understand a male wanting a vagina, just because? I cant, you cant... only they can.

To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

Generally people who experience one sort of body dysphoria can relate at least to some extent with people who experience another.  Yes, you do get the occasional trans woman who is all 'I just cant understand trans men', but the vast majority of them can relate at least in broad terms to the concept.

Quite frankly I wouldn't expect the average cis person to be so heartless. 

For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 12:04:23 PM
For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

Excuse me?
1) My gender identity isn't 'nothing'
2) My gender identity isn't the entirety of my existence thanks
3) Expecting people to not be cissexist, cisnormativity reinforcing transphobes on a forum such as this isn't exactly asking for the moon on a stick

Anyway, this is turning into a slanging match that'd probably end up getting the thread locked.  I'm out before that happens.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 11:02:57 AM
By that standard, yes, im a biggot, sue me...

I do not understand gender/body dsyphoria as a whole topic... i doubt anyone on this board does...

I know how it feels to be female, trapped in a male form, how the hell does that qualify me to understand a male wanting a vagina, just because? I cant, you cant... only they can.

To me. thats Odd/weird/not right... 'I disagree' ill be nice and and blunt. Why should i understand that any more than any random non trans person? give me a break... the whole 'you're trans you ought to understand all deviance from gender norm' bull is frankly tireing...

I agree that I can't feel how Andra feels, being neutrois, or Nero for example, an FtM, or a whole bunch of other people on here. But that does not mean I have any right to deny them what I am asking for myself - recognition of my identity along with the corrective procedures I need to bring my body in line with that identity. Just because you don't understand somebody doesn't mean you can't have empathy with their plight. Besides, even from a purely selfish point of view, demanding rights for ourselves while denying them to others is a losing position - discrimination tends to bleed outwards again unless you kill it off completely.

Mina.

Quote from: Andra on December 30, 2008, 12:14:09 PM

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 12:04:23 PM
For someone who wants to be nothing, you expect a damn lot...

3) Expecting people to not be cissexist, cisnormativity reinforcing transphobes on a forum such as this isn't exactly asking for the moon on a stick

im not allowed to be normal?  to act and be like any other girl i know? Im sorry, but feth that... I did NOT transition to buck some gender trend, to fight some cause. I transitioned to live normally, and because i do, i am somehow something bad? I'm afraid you're as bad as you suggest i am... How DARE you suggest i should not be normal, you are transsexist, transormativity reinforcing cisphobe... ON THIS FORUM a forum of tollerance, acceptance, and FREEDOM of view, FREEDOM of choice, life, desire... MIND... you spout hatred of your own, and i will not stand by and accept that...

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:30:06 PM
im not allowed to be normal?  to act and be like any other girl i know? Im sorry, but feth that... I did NOT transition to buck some gender trend, to fight some cause. I transitioned to live normally, and because i do, i am somehow something bad? I'm afraid you're as bad as you suggest i am... How DARE you suggest i should not be normal, you are transsexist, transormativity reinforcing cisphobe... ON THIS FORUM a forum of tollerance, acceptance, and FREEDOM of view, FREEDOM of choice, life, desire... MIND... you spout hatred of your own, and i will not stand by and accept that...

o.O Wait, what?!
I said nothing about your gender identity, your gender expression, your gender presentation in this thread.  I do not subscribe to subversivism, gender identities within the binary (or norm) are equally valid to those that are not.  I do not and would never question your right do live within the oft expected role of your identified gender.

"How DARE you suggest i should not be normal"  I suggested nothing of the sort.  I spouted no hatred, merely countered yours, I didn't criticise your gender in any way.  I don't know where you've got this drivel from, but it clearly isn't from anything I've actually said.

you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:51:38 PM
you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

No, no I didn't.  Learn to read.  I accused you of reinforcing cisnormativity, or if you need it spelling out for you (which you clearly do), accused you of reinforcing the idea that normativity is somehow a superior way of being.  (Which is not to suggest that the converse is true, before you invent that strawman again).  You seem to love saying how normative you are, how would somebody agreeing with you be an 'accusation' anyway!  That's like the idea of me accusing you of being a woman...

You are the one wishing people to be denied their own bodily autonomy and you dare to accuse me of being a threat to people's freedom of choice?  How hypocritical can one person get.

i didnt deny it... i said it was weird... learn to read...

as for the cisnormativity... what if that is my belief? arnt you challenging MY right to an opinion?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:51:38 PM
you accused me of cisnormalitiy...

and as for the god damned point... arnt we talking about a MAN who wants a vagina? with a MALE gender identity?

No the conversation was about people who don't necessarily want to go through with social transition and/or HRT.  That does NOT mean male identified.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:57:58 PM
as for the cisnormativity... what if that is my belief? arnt you challenging MY right to an opinion?

No, I'm merely responding to it.  You're pulling the same stunt that the religious right often pulls 'OMG by merely responding to my view you're impinging on MY RIGHT to have an opinion'.  No, no I'm not.  I have my right to respond to your opinion as well. 

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 03:57:58 PM
i didnt deny it... i said it was weird... learn to read...

"Well if they cant live as a woman but wnt it, or want it regardless of that... then no... THEY SHOULDNT..."
"I disagree... there has to be SOME LIMITS... im afraid i cant accept that situation, nor do i want to"
"To me. thats Odd/weird/NOT RIGHT..."
(emphasis added)

I hold my view stong... Why would one Not want to undergo a social transition, and actually be seen as the sex one truely is, than just get the surgery, that IS weird imo... A woman would not settle for living as the wrong sex with the right genetals would not satisfy her... or for a true man to live with a penis even if the rest of him was female...

it makes no sense. and anyone who would be happy with that i would actually question thier motives...

You are right...  we can bandy backwards and forwards 'you're infringing my opinion, no you are! no you are!' heck, it was sortof petty of me to pull that one... but admitedly, It is my view, ill ake that stand now as fact...

I do think normal is superior to abnormal. hell... society agrees... and no ammount of trans acceptance will ever change that.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:11:55 PM
I hold my view stong... Why would one Not want to undergo a social transition, and actually be seen as the sex one truely is, than just get the surgery, that IS weird imo... A woman would not settle for living as the wrong sex with the right genetals would not satisfy her... or for a true man to live with a penis even if the rest of him was female...

it makes no sense. and anyone who would be happy with that i would actually question thier motives...

You are right...  we can bandy backwards and forwards 'you're infringing my opinion, no you are! no you are!' heck, it was sortof petty of me to pull that one... but admitedly, It is my view, ill ake that stand now as fact...

I do think normal is superior to abnormal. hell... society agrees... and no ammount of trans acceptance will ever change that.

Because not everyone subscribes to social gender roles to the same extent.  Not everybody experiences dysphoria in exactly the same way.  Some people weigh everything up and it turns out that staying in their original social gender role is better for them.  Some people can deal with having the wrong secondary sex characteristics and being referred to with the wrong pronouns as long as they don't have the wrong junk in their underwear.  Lets not forget that for mtfs, bottom surgery includes removal of the main source of testosterone, the removal of which can help lessen dysphoria.  Also gender is a spectrum remember, some people who identify as more in-between or neither would probably place less emphasis on social transition to another gender role that isn't really right for them while still wanting rid of the outie. 

Questioning the motives of trans people... Now there's a new one, not.  Last I checked a lot of people still think gender dysphoria is a myth and we're all actually about masturbating into a pair of frilly knickers.

Amusingly you've accused me in this thread of playing the 'real TS' card (which is another thing you pulled out of your behind), but then you drag 'true man' into the discussion.

WTF, you see a retort to something you've said, admit that it was petty and then stand by it with no further justification given?

SOCIETY AGREES WITH ME SO THAT'S OK!!!111  I guess the only way you can deal with your own internalised transphobia is to attack those who are even less normal than you are.

Such is the nature of fecal matter...

it tends to flow down hill...

Yes, i stand by the statement... i admit the 'lawl opinion' bit was petty, not the statement i made bvefore it... please keep up love...

as for true man definition? i think i brought in true woman too... zomg. was that me making a binary dig? or wasnt it?

Look, ill be blunt,

Im a woman, in my mind, men and women exist, the end. The rest is weird... wrong? no, but weird... what is weird? strange? not understood? different? wow... almost seems apropriate doesnt it?

I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:42:37 PM
I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

You seem to take great delight in acting in a privileged manner.  Yes it flows down hill, but those above you have the perfect vantage point to see you spreading it and so will have little if any qualms about sending some down to you. (oh and isn't this a lovely metaphor)

Interesting change of tone from "Odd/weird/NOT RIGHT" (emphasis added) to simply weird.  How strange that you'd say that is being blunt.

Still you fail to see how somebody can be fine with both binary and non-binary genders and not believe one is superior to the other.  Not everybody has the need to elevate themselves above other groups of people.

No, just any human with half a hope of something more than poverty, being single, and boredom... life revolves around elevation above others, its called the food chain. Life is inequalities, doesnt mean one must be cruel, or nasty... Still, we drift from the point, what does equality have to do with me finding something weird?

afterall this is all because i find the concept of a man getting vagina (NOT a f2m) weird? We have established that as a m2f, i do not understand other genders and identities and fettishes related to gender simply because of that fact...

How many civil engineers are capable of designing aircraft... well they are engineers right?

Quote from: Andra on December 30, 2008, 04:52:54 PM
Not everybody has the need to elevate themselves above other groups of people.

QFT.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 30, 2008, 04:42:37 PM
Look, ill be blunt,

Im a woman, in my mind, men and women exist, the end. The rest is weird... wrong? no, but weird... what is weird? strange? not understood? different? wow... almost seems apropriate doesnt it?

I dont care if you dont agree with me... you probably think me being a woman is weird. Fine... go for it. I dont expect you to understand me either... but then you had a go at being a woman... maybe you can?

You were more blunt before when you said a natal male wanting to have SRS to have a vagina, but with no intention of living as female, should not be permitted to have the operation.  That's not just saying it's weird.  That's denying others control over their bodies.  There are a ton, maybe a majority, of folks who would deny you that same autonomy.  And you are as bad as them.  Feel proud.  Apparently it's normal to be a hypocritical prick.

Some people have a desire to amputate limbs... some people want to do all sorts of bizare things... should we let them just because they want to? it IS weird... im not a hypocrite, it IS disturbing and it IS weird, as is the desire for a bloke to want a vagina...

I dont find how you think im a hypocrite? there is a significant difference between someone being transsexual... clinically diagnosed with a disorter.. GID... Born in the wrong body, to someone wanting a certain sexual organ for whatever reason... As ive said, no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life...  To me... a woman, it is weird... Thats my view, deal with it.

Quote from: Starbuck on December 31, 2008, 04:10:49 AM
Some people have a desire to amputate limbs... some people want to do all sorts of bizare things... should we let them just because they want to? it IS weird... im not a hypocrite, it IS disturbing and it IS weird, as is the desire for a bloke to want a vagina...

I dont find how you think im a hypocrite? there is a significant difference between someone being transsexual... clinically diagnosed with a disorter.. GID... Born in the wrong body, to someone wanting a certain sexual organ for whatever reason... As ive said, no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life...  To me... a woman, it is weird... Thats my view, deal with it.

I don't see why people who want to amputate limbs shouldn't be allowed.  Body dysmorphia can ruin people's lives, some people may end up significantly better off minus a limb.

The only 'significant difference' is that your form of dysphoria is approved by a reasonable portion of the medical community.  Some of us are not in such a privileged position.  You don't get to hold a monopoly on being 'born in the wrong body'.  The medical community are NOT infallible.  If the medical community tomorrow wrote a treatment path for neutroises into the WPATH/HBSOC would they then magically begin to have a real medical condition whereas today they don't?

Reasons for wanting 'a certain sexual organ' can include being born in the wrong body.  "no real woman would be satisfied with just the right bits and the wrong life" I wonder, do you think that every person who transitions happily FTM identifies as male and every person who transitions happily MTF identifies female?  Because that simply isn't true.  One can transition FTM because of identifying masculine rather than male.  One can desire to physically transition MTF due to IDing female (or more on the female side) while still feeling 'male role' fits better due to being masculine (or more on the masculine side).  There are other factors too like not passing well, lack of acceptance of others around them, etc that may make somebody not wish to socially transition.

You seem to be the only person in this thread who is equating non-transitioning with being a bloke.

You're being a hypocrite because as far as many people are concerned you're a man wanting a vagina and a pair of breasts and to be called a female name.  You can respond with 'I am a woman duh' as much as you want, say that people accept you because you pass and you're therefore extended assumed-cis-privilege, it won't change the fact that others view what you are as "Odd/weird/not right...".  This is precisely why you're twiddling your thumbs on a 6 year NHS waiting list.  Adequate financial resources don't get diverted from curing physical illnesses to giving surgery to 'weirdos'.