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does "god" know, before we're born, where we'll spend eternity?

Started by Natasha, December 29, 2008, 02:12:05 PM

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soldierjane

Quote from: Alyssa M. on December 31, 2008, 03:21:24 AM
Does the author of a book know that a character will die before it happens?
That is, does an author exist in the same time line as the characters in a book?

Lovely analogy indeed :)

To answer your question, sometimes yes and sometimes no. As a character grows in the mind of the author it starts to carry a certain number of logical parameters that will determine what would be natural for it to do in the context of the written work. However, this leaves out free will completely as the character cannot decide much about their life other than how to gesticulate in a conversation or be the kind of person that makes a certain kind of choice in a given situation the author wants to push through.
It follows from that analogy that we do not posess free will.
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lisagurl

Quoteso really, my free will is an illusion

And God is not an illusion?

What evidence do you have that either is true.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Katia on December 29, 2008, 02:12:05 PM
does "god" know, before we're born, where we'll spend eternity?

So, who said we would "spend eternity" anywhere? If we did that, it would mean we extend infinitely through time making us god.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Alyx.

I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...

What happens when the unstopable force (God's smiting) meets the unmovable object (God's immortality)?
If you do not agree to my demands... TOO LATE
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Heartwood on December 31, 2008, 02:37:49 PM
I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...

It's a basic teaching of Christianity that that has already happened.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Suzy

The question assumes God exists, so I will not argue that point.  The theological concept the question is referring to is called "predestination."  In particular, this variant would also be called double predestination, whereby some believe that God not only chooses some who are elect, but some who are damned.  This is a quite extreme reading of the work of John Calvin, and I know of very few who hold to this rather untenable position in modern times.  Specifically, if there is no free choice, then any judgment would be unjust.  God, by definition, cannot be unjust. The flip side, however, is that God must also, by definition, be omniscient.    So if there is something God does not know, then God is not God.  So, in another sense, it is logical to presume that God knows all, even before it happens. 

I am certainly not omniscient, and have little experience in this area.  However, my own *personal* belief, is that there is no real discrepancy here.  God created us with a capacity to do both good and bad.  Just as with my own children, I want them to use this capacity for good.  However, I know that it is sometimes not quite that way.  Because I love them, I forgive them (though I admit I am sometimes not very good at this).  We were not created to be robots.  Rather, God created this world, giving humanity a certain sphere of freedom.  Within that sphere, however, we do good and sometimes do bad.  However, God's intentions towards us are clear.  God desires that "no one should perish" (2 Peter 3:9).  Towards that end, God created a way.  And in the meantime, God continues to surround us with God's presence, and to lead us, should we care to follow.  We are given freedom, but not left alone.  This is the extremely simplified version of the basic teachings of the theologian Karl Barth, whom I find to be quite helpful.

Kristi
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postoplesbian

God / Jesus says:
We are created in the image of God. We have the choice to follow Gods love. We have always been and will always be. Even in the bible Satan never dies but is cast into eternity in hell or for a 1000 yrs. Jesus says those who can hear let them hear. Jesus says to hear from above to be able to understand God / his father. Jesus says we can only bring the riches of our hearts with us when we shed our shells / bodies and go to above.


I believe:
Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return. Our time here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of our existence. Is your image of God in you the same as you envision God? I don't do religions created by man.
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soldierjane

Quote from: Kristi on December 31, 2008, 05:06:54 PM
The question assumes God exists, so I will not argue that point.  The theological concept the question is referring to is called "predestination."  In particular, this variant would also be called double predestination, whereby some believe that God not only chooses some who are elect, but some who are damned.


Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God chooses for us but whether He knows what we will choose before we do and therefore where we will wait for judgment day.
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Suzy

Quote from: soldierjane on December 31, 2008, 05:38:22 PM
Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God chooses for us but whether He knows what we will choose before we do.

I disagree.  It is impossible to speak of one without the other.  Usually they are seen as two opposite ends of the spectrum.  I see them as complimentary.

Peace,
Kristi
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soldierjane

Quote from: Kristi on December 31, 2008, 05:41:08 PM
Quote from: soldierjane on December 31, 2008, 05:38:22 PM
Predestination is something completely different. The question is not whether God chooses for us but whether He knows what we will choose before we do.

I disagree.  It is impossible to speak of one without the other.  Usually they are seen as two opposite ends of the spectrum.  I see them as complimentary.

Peace,
Kristi

How? Then there's no free will and knowing implies predestination? Or God should know but doesn't?
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Ell

i would like to put in my 2 cents, but as a reluctant Taoist, i am not permitted to comment on this issue, or even think about it.  :P 

does anybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin?

-ell
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postoplesbian

Quote from: ell on December 31, 2008, 06:46:29 PM
i would like to put in my 2 cents, but as a reluctant Taoist, i am not permitted to comment on this issue, or even think about it.  :P 

does anybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin?

-ell


Lao Tzu (from whose writings Taoism came) wrote them down, and walked off into the wilderness never to be heard from again. Reverence for nature and ancestor spirits is common in popular Taoism.


Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return
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lisagurl

Quoteanybody wanna talk about Ursula K. LeGuin
As long as they are talking about imaginary things.
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Alyssa M.

Quote from: Heartwood on December 31, 2008, 02:37:49 PM
I've always wondered if god can kill hirself...

What happens when the unstopable force (God's smiting) meets the unmovable object (God's immortality)?

I prefer more mundane versions of the Epimenides paradox, like: Does the set of all sets that don't contain themselves as an element contain itself as an element?

(Any such paradox arising means you must rethink your assumptions -- but the God version doens't mean God doesn't exist any more than the set theory version means set theory is wrong. It just means the system won't do what you're asking it to do.)
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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lisagurl

QuoteIt just means the system won't do what you're asking it to do

Unless you believe it does.
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Virginia87106

Yes, God knows, she certainly does, that I shall be a bright ornament on the galactic Christmas Tree for eternity.

Now if you think that is boring, consider that my light will never go out, I shall have a view of the entire Universe, and that I'll have plenty of bright company.
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lisagurl

Quote from: Virginia87106 on December 31, 2008, 07:45:05 PM
Yes, God knows, she certainly does, that I shall be a bright ornament on the galactic Christmas Tree for eternity.

Now if you think that is boring, consider that my light will never go out, I shall have a view of the entire Universe, and that I'll have plenty of bright company.

If that stuff never happened would you still believe in God?

Some get 20 virgins for believing and look what they do.
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mina.magpie

Quote from: lisagurl on December 31, 2008, 08:36:04 AM
Quoteso really, my free will is an illusion

And God is not an illusion?

What evidence do you have that either is true.

I was simply accepting the premise of the question that "God" does exist in the form most of the West understands Him/Her/It to. I never said what I believed.

Anyways, from that position, of an all-seeing and all-knowing god existing, predestination logically follows. Not by itself, of course - I could attain Nirvana tomorrow and become all-seeing and knowing myself, which doesn't mean I'm also directing things, but God is the creator as well. Even assuming that (S)he no longer takes an active hand in creation, letting things run their course naturally, (S)he would have set every starting parameter knowing exactly how they would play out. That would include putting certain events in my life knowing how I would react to them. By including events in my life that (S)he knew would cause me to sin or perhaps turn from Christianity, God predestined me to a specific course. From that predestination it follows that free will does not exist.

An omniscient creator god precludes free will in its creations. The two are mutually exclusive.

Mina.
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cindybc

My own theory in htree parts.

I believe that no mater how many different ways anyone dices, or slices it these types of concepts about a God, god, goddess, or any type of omnipotent being or a single infinite intelligence the best we can come up with are a multitude of theories brought up by theologians and researchers into ancient religious scripts and other ancient cabalistic docments and other investigators of ancient reigious artifacts and legends.

Some complimenting each other and others contradicting each other. Many theories have been made about such a extraterestrial force or forces of one type omnipotent being or beings or another which govenrs all things in the universe, or creation. We to date have not yet even come up with a sufficiently sensitive enough scientific instrument to detect what is on the other side of this reality.

We may only maybe at best able to detect such phenomena by inference, like detecting some type of extraterrestrial energies interacting or affecting energies in this reality afecting them to act oddly or move in a different pattern then normal as compared to other energies of a similar consistency around it.

Could these energies be consistent to intelligent entities such as the ancient gods and goddesses of legend verses energy and mass and the quantum dimensions with no beginning and no end?

All things, animate and inanimate has spirit energy, auras, which are the life sustaining energy found within all living beings. Inanimate object also emit low frequency energy fields around them, energy fileds created by friction of molecular movement as well as the atomic and subatomic activety within these structures. Our entire mother earth is spirit energy, electromagnetic and gravitational energy. In that sense all is of the living spirit, the rocks, the earth, the plants, animals, water and all that resides within it, the air and all that resides in it. This was why when the ancient ones had used what they needed from the land they returned it to the land from where all is born all should be returned.

Heaven and Hell

I believe we create our own hells in what ever fashion one wishes to experience it and see it, we make our choice. The same can work the opposite way for reasonable peace and happiness here in the now.

The universe is a continuum, a **constant** which is shifting and changing form from mater to energy and back again.
The duality resides in our own minds.

The universe is in perfect balance one state of energy and mass balances the other. A star dies in a supernova the dust clouds created by the supernova are called Nebula gases and dust. the very elements that new stars are shaped in, or born from this dust and energy.

Some stars will implode and become massive black holes. Many of these black hole are found at the center of Galaxies which holds the galaxy together keeping it from drifting  off into empty space. This is why you will see a galaxy with a very bright center in the middle. That bright center is the event horizon filled with super heated mass and energy under extreme pressure from the black holes extreme gravitational pull within the shell of event horison. This is why you see galaxies in a spiral or circular form.

The attraction of Massive black holes and repulsion of dark mater is what keeps the universe from flying apart to quickly. Well so much for my quick lesson in quantum and the unified theory of all physics.

But then are not the dualities of all things as proposed here in this reality being stretched to the limits of absurdity? A grand confusion by those whose only desire is, "what's in it for me?" Like the would be tin gods (leaders) that wish to be king poo, poo, on their little tin thrones on top of poo, poo hill would have us beleive?

Cindy
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cindybc

If God killed him/herself, that would be the absolute paradox, and not a very nice one.
Let us say that Einstein was correct when he said that before time, before void, there was only **thought** Thought was made into mater and energy through the ether of creation. This would mean that void would have to have been **thought of** before it could be conceived. And matter and energy could not exist without void= **time and space** Take away thought, what's left? Interesting topic now I can only hope it doesn't die just because I showed up in cowboy boots.  ;D

Cindy
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