k, a lot of you on here have told me that you have gotten you're gender marker on your drivers license and your ssa records without having had full srs, but the information i am finding on the net is that they lie to your face (like every government agency), and then out you when you get a new job or something. my wife suggested i should just have an orchiectomy and ssa would change my M to an F but since Pres. Bush's real-id crap went into effect on May 11th, 2008, SSA quietly changed their policy requiring you to have FULL srs before they will change the gender marker. i, as well as many others, don't see how this helps with the protection of homeland security. from what i'm gathering on the internet(most recent stuff) is that whether i have an orchi, full srs or not, here in ohio, they will never amend my BC to say female, in that respect i'm guessing i'm forever screwed. and since here in ohio and many other states, they require you to provides ssa documents and a BC for DLs, mine will always say m, because they won't honor anything less than full srs.

my questions are:

1.how did you get ssa to change your gender?(type of surgery if any)

2.what year did you have it done? pre-bush 2008 or after bush 2008?

3.if its not going to help me legally in anyway why should i bother with an orchiectomy, especially if SSA is just going to lie to my face that they will never out my gender, only to do it the first chance they get?

4. please state which state you're from so i can understand how your laws concur with trans-people.

all answers are greatly appreciated. i apologize for not invoking the help of people outside the US, answer if you think you can help.

Quote1.how did you get ssa to change your gender?(type of surgery if any)

top surgery.

Quote2.what year did you have it done? pre-bush 2008 or after bush 2008?

2008, after real ID.

Quote3.if its not going to help me legally in anyway why should i bother with an orchiectomy, especially if SSA is just going to lie to my face that they will never out my gender, only to do it the first chance they get?

I've never heard of this lying business.  I applied for a passport (my first) after changing my gender and it was correct.  I doubt SSA has enough manpower or cares enough to have a transgender call center where they call every employer you'll ever have. 

oh, and FWIW- a friend and I did our court dates and paperwork errands together and she changed her gender with just a trach shave.  It's all in how your letter is worded.  Believe me, no one at SSA is going to ask you to drop your pants.

Believe me, no one at SSA is going to ask you to drop your pants. LMAO. thats funny, but when i first came out at my current job, and had an interim store manager, she pretty much asked me to do just that, which i found extremely rude and invasive of my privacy, which i feel i am doing here but i don't plan on going and using it to hurt people like my current employer and state want to. below is a link i found while trying to research the cost of an orchi.

http://www.geocities.com/sherrylanina/SSA.html

i read the first few paragraphs of the link and it's pretty clear what's going on in that case.  This MTF has male on her SS records, but put female on her work docs.  Easy solution- don't do that.  Keep your documentation congruent until you actually change things.  Not doing this is fraud.

what social security requires is a court order (if you live in such a state) or a letter that states "Sexual reassignment has been completed" with an affidavit from your surgeon.  That's it.  They don't need to know *which* procedures.  They don't want before and after photos. They want a doctor to say that they did something surgical and that you are done.  Period.

Mickie, here is the full text of my letter.  It has enabled me to get a court order gender change, my SS marker changed, my birth certificate (which was not issued in CA) changed...  This is all you need.

Quote

I, Michael L. Brownstein, M.D., FACS, declare:

1.  I am a licensed physician in the state of California.  I have personal and first hand knowledge of the matteres set forth ehrein and could competently testify thereto under oath.

2.   Mister, whose medical records indicate his date of birth is Mister's Birthday, was a patient of mine.

3.   On the date of Mister's Surgery, I performed an irreversable surgical procedure for the purpose of altering Mister's sex charachteristics from female to male.

4.   Mister has completed his gender reassignment surgery.

I declare under penalty aof perjury under the laws of the State of California that the foregoing declaration is true and correct.  Sworn to this day of Date of Swearing in San Francisco, California.

Michael L. Brownstein, M.D., FACS

CA License G14085

Quote from: Mister on January 07, 2009, 01:59:55 PM
i read the first few paragraphs of the link and it's pretty clear what's going on in that case.  This MTF has male on her SS records, but put female on her work docs.  Easy solution- don't do that.  Keep your documentation congruent until you actually change things.  Not doing this is fraud.

she never stated where she was from, but what i'm guessing is that around here in Ohio, if you put male on your documentation, thats how they EXPECT you to show up to an interview, and for work EVERYDAY. they don't want you showing up dressed as a woman for either because around here in my area they CAN'T understand the idea of transgender persons- they just see a pervert, and seeing as i live in Ohio i can't even fight job rejections as discrimination based on gender identity because ohio only provides this for state employees.

but you're saying that i should be able to have an orchi and have my surgeon state that i have had irreversible sexual reassignment surgery and SSA has to eat it basically? if that's the case why does it not seem that easy to me?

that's not what i'm saying.

what i'm saying is that if you have an orchi (or trach shave, or BA, or full on SRS) and your surgeon writes your letter according to the standards set forth by the SSA (words like 'complete' and 'irreversible') that they MUST comply.  Not should.  Not may.  Not are supposed to.  MUST.

Contact NCLR or the transgender law center for the support around getting your surgeon to write a letter that'll meet SSA's standard. 

Quote from: The Only Warrior Princess Mickie on January 07, 2009, 02:55:57 PM

Quote from: Mister on January 07, 2009, 01:59:55 PM
i read the first few paragraphs of the link and it's pretty clear what's going on in that case.  This MTF has male on her SS records, but put female on her work docs.  Easy solution- don't do that.  Keep your documentation congruent until you actually change things.  Not doing this is fraud.

she never stated where she was from, but what i'm guessing is that around here in Ohio, if you put male on your documentation, thats how they EXPECT you to show up to an interview, and for work EVERYDAY. they don't want you showing up dressed as a woman for either because around here in my area they CAN'T understand the idea of transgender persons- they just see a pervert, and seeing as i live in Ohio i can't even fight job rejections as discrimination based on gender identity because ohio only provides this for state employees.

but you're saying that i should be able to have an orchi and have my surgeon state that i have had irreversible sexual reassignment surgery and SSA has to eat it basically? if that's the case why does it not seem that easy to me?

I've heard of that gambit before but it doesn't fly in regards to changing gender markers AFAIK.

About work, well here in GA they don't like trans people much either but I've found that being bold usually works. That and passing. I can't stress how much people care about passing. HR departments are usually more in tune with what's going on around the country in regards to attitudes towards trans people than the average manager and are also more open to things like HRCs guide for employers of transgender people, for example. I gave that to my HR lady (who was really nice)when we had to confront the restrooms issue and (coupled with the fact that I passed) that overturned their previous decision that I couldn't use the female restroom. I was their first transitioning employee, by the way.
Like I mentioned earlier, if you think you might be turned down because of that, interview as male but give some hint that you're not a lumberjack. When you have been on hormones for a while, going in gender neutral clothes plays to your advantage because there is no artifice in your presentation and yet you look like a girl. If your name can be shortened to a more feminine form, by all means do it. After you are hired, you can gradually come out to your employer but the less of a surprise it is to them, the best they will take it. The more inevitable and natural it seems to them, the best.

Quotebut you're saying that i should be able to have an orchi and have my surgeon state that i have had irreversible sexual reassignment surgery and SSA has to eat it basically? if that's the case why does it not seem that easy to me

It is the human perception of the clerk in the SS office. I have a doctor's letter, name order and my passport. This young man looked up the process on the computer. He photocopied my name change order and the doctor's letter had me sign the changes. It all took 5 minutes in MS.

I waited at the Social Security office all afternoon, and I was the last one there who finally got called to see someone shortly before closing on a Friday. I provided documentation for my name change, and also wrote F on the form to change my gender. The SS worker was a nice middle-aged black lady, who was in a good mood. Maybe she was thinking of the weekend about to start, and I was her last person of the day. Anyway she was very pleasant, and officially changed my gender to F.  Even though I was pre-op. I brought a letter from my doctor stating that I planned to get surgery. He had written the letter for me to get a temporary passport with an F. The passport office refused for some unstated reason, and gave me a regular passport with an M. However, the Social Security lady must have given the letter a superficial glance, and assumed I qualified. I was the last person on a Friday, I guess she just wanted to take care of me fast and start on her weekend. I lucked out.

@ Mickie:

I checked the link above, and she stated that she knew Social Security still had her listed as male, but that others (not SSA) assured her that her employer would not find out.  That used to be true.  But the SSA software for checking social security records was changed right after 9/11 to issue a "NO MATCH" letter to the employer if the gender marker submitted by the employer does not match the gender marker in the records.  The employer is not told WHY there is a NO MATCH, and they are not required to do anything about it, but the NO MATCH letter tells them that they have a time limit of, I think, two months to correct it.  Later, about the time of REAL ID, the government tried to put in place a new rule that the employer has to fire the employee if the employee does not correct the problem within the time limit.  But the courts struck it down.  I'm not sure what happened after that, but I think that's still the status quo.

I hope that information clarifies for you that the information at the link has nothing to do with how to change your SSA records, etc.  The SSA standards language does create a loophole for other surgeries if the surgeon will write the letter properly.  Some states have similar wording for changing the driver's license.  But you might not be able to change the Driver's License in Ohio without an affidavit from a sexual reassignment surgeon attesting to the fact that he performed genital sex reassignment surgery.  You will need to check the wording of Ohio's statute.

As far as getting protection in Ohio for gender non-conforming appearance or behavior, it may not be available at the state level, but it is available at the federal level.  As Tekla pointed out, it is expensive to make a federal case.   But maybe Lambda Legal or the ACLU will step in and start sending private employers a message like they did in Texas recently.  It might depend on whether Lambda Legal has local counsel willing to donate such services.  I suggest you could contact Cole Thaler at Lambda Legal and tell him your concerns and ask if there is any possibility Lambda Legal can intervene in Ohio.

Quote from: The Only Warrior Princess Mickie on January 07, 2009, 01:26:56 PM
....... srs or not, here in ohio, they will never amend my BC to say female, in that respect i'm guessing i'm forever screwed.

AFTER your SRS, go back to correct you BC.  Tell them it was a mistake, and it's screwing up everything in your life, then get a doctor to examine you, and state, "yup....itsa girl"
Might work?

I just did mine today.  I brought my BC (female name), name change, and surgeon's letter, and the form.  She asked for my ID and my wallet was empty!!  I'd left my DL at home on my copier.  But she changed everything including the gender marker with no questions and was very pleasant.

Jay

I had a similar experience when I went to change my name at SSA.

I was well aware of the official rules and knew that I could not change my gender marker without the surgeons letter stating that I was post-op.

I didn't even prepare to change my gender at SSA, I just went intending to just change my name.  I blogged the episode here:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13793.0.html

So you might try just going into the office and seeing if they'll do it 'sub-rosa' and let it slide.

After all the worst they could say is, "no".

-Sandy

Screw changing your BC, get a passport.

http://www.nctequality.org/

The National Center for Transgender Equality
1325 Massachusetts Ave., Suite 700
Washington, DC 20005
202-903-0112 phone
202-393-2241 fax

Quote from: Mister on January 08, 2009, 04:58:28 PM
Screw changing your BC, get a passport.

Except the passport application requires a BC.

Quote from: SusanK on January 09, 2009, 07:36:09 AM

Quote from: Mister on January 08, 2009, 04:58:28 PM
Screw changing your BC, get a passport.

Except the passport application requires a BC.

Only for citizenship not gender and with a court order name change it does not even have to have you current name.

here in Ohio they require you to have your BC for your license too, i recently had it suspended and think i needed it then too but i cant remember, now