By RON WORD

QuoteFoes want to repeal the new protection with a March 24 ballot measure that has divided Gainesville, a generally gay-friendly university city surrounded by staunchly conservative north Florida.

Those who support the transgender protections say their opponents are really unleashing a broader attack on the rights of gay, lesbian and transgender individuals in general.

The city commission approved the restroom provision by a 4-3 vote a year ago. Before the ink could dry, Bible-quoting opponents angrily began working for its repeal.

"You are trying to operate in a realm you do not have the authority to operate in," one pastor, George Brantley, told the commissioners.

The debate is expected to become noisier as the ballot nears with opponents resorting to more TV ads and campaigns pegged to such slogans as "Keep Men out of Women's Restrooms and vice versa."

Call me conservative or bigoted, but I really feel that if a TS woman can't "pass" undetected in a female toilet (or gives off a masculine presence / aura) then she shouldn't be in there.

It is up to other women to judge who or what is acceptable, and who and what they they are willing to accept in a restroom which their pubescent daughters might be using ...

Laura x

So if someone finds out (e.g. gossip from HR, background checks, ...) and spreads the rumor TS women should be forced out of the restroom?

"Call me conservative or bigoted, but I really feel that if a TS woman can't "pass" undetected in a female toilet (or gives off a masculine presence / aura) then she shouldn't be in there."

I do not think you are bigoted, but "passing" can be a very relative term, and TSs that are tall, will have a more difficult time passing than shorter TSs.  Women's restrooms have separate stalls, so what is the big deal?  If a person identifies as a woman, and is dressed as a woman, then she should be allowed to be in the women's restrooms, whatever her "aura" is like.

I've just come up with a great solution for the economic crisis. We need to hire bathroom guards. Think about it, how many public restrooms are there nationwide? If we hire Gender Guards TM  for each one to make sure that menindresses don't go into womens' rooms... 

Z

Hey, I could do that, I've been trained for it almost.  We did a show once with a band called The Lords of Acid, they do a song called "Show Me Your P*ssy" and invite all the girls in the audience to come up on stage and do just that.  But, you can't have a liquor permit and show genitals in Cali, so I had to stand at the side of the stage and have the girls lift up their skirts for a panty check before we let them up.  Yeah, I got paid for that.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 10, 2009, 12:12:13 AM
Call me conservative or bigoted, but I really feel that if a TS woman can't "pass" undetected in a female toilet (or gives off a masculine presence / aura) then she shouldn't be in there.

It is up to other women to judge who or what is acceptable, and who and what they they are willing to accept in a restroom which their pubescent daughters might be using ...

Laura x

Well, let me offer you a perspective from the FTM side of the mirror. When I was younger and thinner and looked more like a young man, I was frequently challenged when I used women's bathrooms. I obviously gave off that "masculine presence/aura" that you are talking about. Even when I opened my mouth and spoke in a voice that was neutral and not quite masculine, I still ran into problems. In other words, I was a female-bodied person who presented as a woman, AND I COULD NOT CONSISTENTLY PASS. Should I have been required to use the men's room?

When they were essentially butch lesbians and before they even began to identify as trans, a number of my FTM acquaintances were similarly challenged. Some were even chased out or refused entry by female users, and I've heard a number of plausible stories about cisgender women who called security or the police. If MTFs should be subjected to the democratic process every time they need to take a leak in a public toilet--or if they should stop using the ladies' room the minute someone challenges them--then masculine women, whether trans or not, should be treated the same. And that's just not acceptable to me. Masculine women and butches who present as women and see themselves as women ARE women, regardless of how others perceive them. Why shouldn't they be able to use the women's restroom without being hassled? And if they should, then what about the MTFs?

As Virginia notes, passing is relative and changeable. A person can be passable in one community but not another. If random restroom yahoos get to decide who gets to use the facilities and who doesn't, things get even more chaotic than they currently are. Unisex bathrooms would solve some, but not all, of these problems. What we really need are sensible guidelines that everyone can rely on, better education about gender issues in general, and a bit more tolerance for people's differences.

To sum up in mathematical terms, "masculine" is not one-to-one and onto with "male." The problem is much more complicated than that.

Just some food for thought.

The problem is much more complicated than that.

All too true, in a world, and not just the 'real' world, but the very in fact world here, life is far more complicated than a simple choice between A and B.  In fact, simple choices are for simple people.

Foes Say Law Protects Predators

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: January 10, 2009

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/us/11gainesville.html

GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — A blond girl heads from a playground into a women's restroom. A scruffy-looking man, lurking outside, darts in behind her. "Your City Commission made this legal," the words on the television screen read.

The advertisement came from opponents of a gender-identity provision added last year to Gainesville's antidiscrimination ordinance. The provision allows the city's roughly 100 transgender residents to use whichever restroom they choose.

Foes want to repeal the provision with a ballot measure on March 24. The issue has divided Gainesville, a generally gay-friendly university city in staunchly conservative north Florida.