I'm just gonna do a little monologue here.. You can skip it if you want to the questions at the end cause I'm curious about everyone's thoughts...

Someone asked me today, if I just have some kind of mental illness causing my feelings.. Because I had known him before I realized I was trans.. I guess coming out just seemed sort of abrupt to him..

I can't dismiss the possibility that it's somehow a mental illness and that my brain went wrong, and my body was on the right track, by developing as female. After all they supposedly found the gene causing mtf TSism, that makes mtf's brain less sensitive to androgens in the womb... But of course theres a whole lot of other possibilities of causes and it doesn't really matter what's right or wrong etc etc etc
Well anyways, I have really bad emotional problems and my parents have taken me to shrinks so many times for completely unrelated (?) issues.. and I spend most of my days isolating myself from everyone and you know people go crazy by doin that..

Another thing that gives me doubts.. I didn't 'realize' my transness until I was 17.. Then after that the feelings of hating my body and female role got worse and worse. Before, I was fine with feminine pronouns. i was OK (or indifferent) with being known as a girl. I was OK with my body ..sort of... But then I look back on all that with all my memories of passing off as a boy as a kid, doing boy things, wanting boy friends, not wanting to be naked or be involved in sex of any kind, being horrified and nauseated by things going inside my naughty bits, thinking being female was a curse...

..I dunno it just clicked, the memories make sense now. but this whole thing is just unreal. What if I am just psychotic or this is some kind of disorder that started at 17, after my depressive breakdown?
What if this is just some obsession or phase? But searching through these feelings and memories I've had, validate myself in my mind.. but what if none of this is real and just a delusion?

And why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?
Why does changing my outside have to matter? Why do I care so much?? Why do we care? If I take T, have surgeries, I'm still gonna be female. What if I really am? What if my brain really is female, and I was supposed to be? And I'm just some weirdo who's mutilating their body who just can't accept things as they are? The sky is blue and the grass is green so why do I wanna change it? Cause I think blue sky and green grass are ugly in my world??
Why can't I accept my female role and body and just try to force myself to do all the things women do and just deal with it?
I've decided to transition in the past few months but today I'm just having a lot of doubts. I feel so easily affected by these types of comments from people.. What if I can't function as a man? I can't now. What if I'll never make new friends? Lovers? Reconnect with my family? Find a job? What if I screw this all up even more by transitioning and end up killing myself anyways?....
But what do I have to lose.. I've already started dressing completely male, and readying myself for transition. What if I change my mind? But the feelings are just so intense..

I just wish it were simpler, that I were a normal person.. who puts everything including gender in a nice neat box. Who doesn't have to question their gender or sanity or how they'll get along in the world..

So I'd like your thoughts on whether TS and gender dysphoria could be or is caused by mental illness.. as well as whether it's our mind or body that's wrong?

Well, if I'm mentally ill, I have been since I was 2 1/2.  It seems to me that, while not definitive, there is enough evidence to indicate that gender dysphoria is an in-born trait, or at least a congenital birth defect.   Now, that's not to say that some people don't have gender issues that have nothing to do with physiology.  The human psyche is complex, and subject to as many variations as there are people.  But, I think the vast majority of TSs are simply wired differently.

I totally hear you, when it comes to doubts, though.  All the "what ifs" can be crippling.

if there is a magical bill that can transform my brain let me know about it.  i would be ready to take it.

no one would go through the pain of changing their body and potentially loose family job ect..... if they can cure their mind.

There are some very good points and questions brought up here. Questions that many struggle with from time to time:
Why do I feel this way?
Where and how will I fit in?
What's wrong with me?
What's wrong with them?
Why do I feel like an actor when I carry out my "expected role" to appease others in society?

SELF ACCEPTANCE can be the most difficult hurdle for a person to deal with.

Stand proud and be who you are

And no, I don't think your mental. Your dealing with some very common difficulties that many experience.

Personally, I don't care if it is a mental disorder.

I consider this all empirically: Look at before and after pictures of anybody who transitioned.
They are much happier afterwards.

They've tried enough times "fixing" people with all sorts of therapy.
Only transition with hormones and surgery works.

Yeah, but do you see the why it is important to help someone who is going through the question and self acceptance thing? We loose too many wonderful people

Theres a difference between a neurological condition, and mental illness... many dont diferentiate... 'its brain stuff'.

Tbh if m2f has been found... then f2m must exist. Both are too common to be mental illness... too common and similar in symptoms and feelings... and if transition cures it, mental illness or neurological factor, who cares? its cured if its cured.

Quote from: northy on January 17, 2009, 09:51:57 PM

..I dunno it just clicked, the memories make sense now. but this whole thing is just unreal. What if I am just psychotic or this is some kind of disorder that started at 17, after my depressive breakdown?
What if this is just some obsession or phase? But searching through these feelings and memories I've had, validate myself in my mind.. but what if none of this is real and just a delusion?

And why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?
Why does changing my outside have to matter? Why do I care so much?? Why do we care? If I take T, have surgeries, I'm still gonna be female. What if I really am? What if my brain really is female, and I was supposed to be? And I'm just some weirdo who's mutilating their body who just can't accept things as they are? The sky is blue and the grass is green so why do I wanna change it? Cause I think blue sky and green grass are ugly in my world??
Why can't I accept my female role and body and just try to force myself to do all the things women do and just deal with it?
I've decided to transition in the past few months but today I'm just having a lot of doubts. I feel so easily affected by these types of comments from people.. What if I can't function as a man? I can't now. What if I'll never make new friends? Lovers? Reconnect with my family? Find a job? What if I screw this all up even more by transitioning and end up killing myself anyways?....
But what do I have to lose.. I've already started dressing completely male, and readying myself for transition. What if I change my mind? But the feelings are just so intense..

I just wish it were simpler, that I were a normal person.. who puts everything including gender in a nice neat box. Who doesn't have to question their gender or sanity or how they'll get along in the world..

So I'd like your thoughts on whether TS and gender dysphoria could be or is caused by mental illness.. as well as whether it's our mind or body that's wrong?

Northy:

I think that if you check around here you'll find that there are a lot of us that have asked those very same questions!

Are you depressed because you are trans?  Or are you trans because you are depressed?  Does it matter?

Also a mental illness isn't a bad thing.  It is used to describe the symptoms and condition a person may be suffering trying to deal with their life.  And, yes, GID is considered a mental illness.  But it is not considered to be in the same class as a psychosis or personally/socially harmful condition.

Each one of us have to grapple with the question "Why can't I just be comfortable in my own skin?"  "Am I weird or what?"

Unfortunately, being transsexual is something that there is no test for (at least not while you are alive).  You are transsexual, because you say you are.  So having doubts is very understandable.  Even those of us who have completely transitioned to their chosen gender sometimes question whether or not it was the right thing.  I do sometime, though I have never regretted my decision.

If you take testosterone, have the surgeries, your body will still be genetically female, that is true.  But where does masculinity truly reside?  Is it between your legs, or between your ears?

Many who consider themselves to be transsexual, feel that having this condition is a terminal illness.  Sooner or later the distress of being unable to reconcile our physical body with our mental feelings becomes so distressing that depression becomes clinical and can easily give way to suicidal thoughts and actions.

And the only known cure is to transition physically and socially, as much as possible, to the gender that we KNOW ourselves to be.

It is not an easy path.  And yes, all the fears that you have mentioned, and maybe more, you will have to face.  This is the most daunting and challenging thing a human being can do.  It changes the most fundamental aspects of every part of our life.  It will not only challenge you, but those around you, your family, friends and co-workers.

We do not follow this path because of some trivial need of gratification.  We follow this path because we can to nothing else.

But I will tell you that if you do decide to pursue this.  You find that once you do transition, life will become a thing of color and beauty.  For the first time you will experience a feeling you never knew, normalcy.  For many of us, feeling normal is something we never get to feel until we transition.  And what a wonderful feeling it is!

You have come to the right place to talk about this.  Many brothers and sisters have made this journey and can understand exactly what you are going through.  You are not alone.  You are loved.

Welcome, my brother!  You are among friends.

-Sandy

There is no doubt that the brain is a wondrous thing, and i guess is one of the most complex organs to try and deal with.  It is no secret that the medical community has battled with this question for many years and i don't think that there is any hope of a definitive diagnosis any time soon.

This is probably to simplified but... To me this thing that makes me who i am is brain related and since this is apparently not normal, then one must conclude that it is my brain that has caused me to be this way.  Am i ill? Of course not, i'm perfectly healthy, apart for a few aches and pains etc.  My brain seems to be functioning quite well in every way.  That leaves my thought process.

So is my mind out of whack?  Apparently not, one only has to read articles on the mind to quickly discover that it seems to be even more complex than the brain itself ( see Wikipedia Article.)  The way i see it, my brain processes my thoughts from my perceptions and stores the result as my mind.  So if the way i see myself/perceive myself does not match the norm then i would assume that it is "Dis-ordered."

Sigh! But then what do i know

steph

Peace, friend. Calm down.
I'm a psychiatrist, and have obsessively considered all the various arguments and data, and concluded that I don't know. A recent APA(Psychological) task force concluded the same thing.
That having been said, there is a right thing for you to do now. Pursue a course of less misery, more happiness. Anything less is life is a waste. (Goddess knows I have wasted enough time and energy!) Be kind to yourself. Acknowledge your needs and feelings as real, worthy of respect. If you want to transition, do so. Prepare. You'll be more yourself, happier, more productive and creative.
So what if maybe it will change. It is doubtful that it will, but if it does, then it is right at that time. things change sometimes. OK. That's the way life is. But it doesn't take away from the right to pursue happiness now, according to our best lights.
Believe in yourself.
Namaste, Lunae

Quote from: Lunae on January 18, 2009, 07:54:32 AM
Peace, friend. Calm down.
I'm a psychiatrist, and have obsessively considered all the various arguments and data, and concluded that I don't know. A recent APA(Psychological) task force concluded the same thing.
That having been said, there is a right thing for you to do now. Pursue a course of less misery, more happiness. Anything less is life is a waste. (Goddess knows I have wasted enough time and energy!) Be kind to yourself. Acknowledge your needs and feelings as real, worthy of respect. If you want to transition, do so. Prepare. You'll be more yourself, happier, more productive and creative.
So what if maybe it will change. It is doubtful that it will, but if it does, then it is right at that time. things change sometimes. OK. That's the way life is. But it doesn't take away from the right to pursue happiness now, according to our best lights.
Believe in yourself.
Namaste, Lunae

It would be really good if you could post the reference, and the results of this "recent APA(Psychological) task force", it would be good reading for the members and would probably make an excellent article for our Wiki.

steph

http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf

Related to the DSMV?

There's a good chance that you were "okay" with being a girl becuase you didn't realize there were other options.  You probably spent most of your life assuming that gender=sex because that is what everybody is taught.  Similar problems abound among the LGB.  They have been taught that falling in love happens between a boy and a girl, so when they have a crush on someone of the opposite sex or find them attractive, they do not recognize their feelings as such.

Quote from: Mr. Fox on January 18, 2009, 10:57:28 AM
There's a good chance that you were "okay" with being a girl becuase you didn't realize there were other options.  You probably spent most of your life assuming that gender=sex because that is what everybody is taught.  Similar problems abound among the LGB.  They have been taught that falling in love happens between a boy and a girl, so when they have a crush on someone of the opposite sex or find them attractive, they do not recognize their feelings as such.

Humans have a knack for coping with oppressive situations by persuading themselves that it isn't all that bad. Especially when there's no escape in sight and it seems like that's all there'll ever be. I think this is how tyrants have been able to keep populations subjected for ages and ages. By psychologically getting them to believe there's no alternative. Ideologies that preach submissiveness to power are used to indoctrinate the masses to have no thought of rising up and overthrowing the oppression.

In history, one analogy reminds me strongly of my gender experience: In 1989, all over Eastern Europe, one Communist government after another fell to popular uprisings. The Iron Curtain disappeared, the Berlin Wall came down, and not much later even the Soviet Union dissolved. It all took place so quickly. All the Communist governments in Eastern Europe fell within the space of a few months.

In December 1989 as the masses in Romania were rising up to overthrow the dictator Ceauşescu, I heard political commentators on All Things Considered analyzing the situation this way: As long as people are completely kept under tight control, they acquiesce to their oppression, thinking there's nothing to be done about it. But once they start to get a taste of freedom--they will struggle hard to get more and more freedom. They then feel that continued oppression is unbearable and they refuse to submit to it any more.

That was precisely how my gender went. I'd been brought up to believe that there was nothing I could do about being male, no matter how much I hated it, so I just had to grin and bear it. But once there appeared a chink in the Berlin Wall of my gender, I quickly set about breaking it down, demolished it, and escaped to the other side. And no power on earth could hold me back. To my family it looked so sudden they were dumbfounded. But that's how oppression fell in Eastern Europe, and that's how it fell for me.

I think this is very true.  Right before x-mas I saw a friend of a friend for the first time in a year and she was just amazed.  She just could not get over how happy I looked, how the stress and anger along with the despair had just vanished.  I am happier now then ever before in my life even with out a job.  (a job would be nice)   

Quote from: Renate on January 18, 2009, 05:51:27 AM
Look at before and after pictures of anybody who transitioned.
They are much happier afterwards.

Quote from: Lunae on January 18, 2009, 08:24:42 AM
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/transgender/2008TaskForceReport.pdf

Thank's for the link Lunae.  The article itself is too big for the our Wiki but the link will be added in the appropriate place.

Done.  Link has been added to our Wiki under Gender Identity in the external links section.

steph

Re: What if we're mentally ill?

more importantly, what if we're not?   

Quote from: Nero on January 18, 2009, 02:45:09 PM
Re: What if we're mentally ill?

more importantly, what if we're not?  

Very profound Nero.....

... does this mean that everyone in the world might actually be transgendered, but only a few of us come to recognise it....Could expalin a lot..?

Thanks everyone for the kind words

I guess I just think way too much about why stuff happens, and get all worked up, instead of just dealing with what I've got. I know what I wanna do - transition - but then I ask all of these silly questions and listen to other people's suggestions, and ignorance and transphobia...
I'm still gonna do it though. even if I won't be any happier, even if I am actually a raving lunatic, I know this is what I need to do to save myself, and to lead the life I wanna live. I just wish it wasn't such a big deal to everyone.