This is partly a rant and partly a plea for advice.

I'm out to most of my friends, and spend as much time as I can in "girl-mode." Those that I see less often are catching on. I do my best to look good, but "good" right now still meand "visibly gender-variant." I'm just not to the point of being able to be read as female by mosts people. Luckily I live in a place where most people are openminded and don't care, and I don't generally run across the rare exceptions.

The problem is that my friends keep using male pronouns. I'm fine with that in situations when I must present as male -- when I'm climbing there's no "en femme" but only "on belay" -- but the rest of the time, I'm just stunned every time I hear it. These are my friends. They are wonderful and supportive and I love them. But somehow, despite the long hair and mascara and lacy camisole and skirt and mary janes, that I perhaps might prefer to be refered to as "she." They even get that saying "sorry, man" after some random slight might not actually make it all better. But they keep using the damn wrong pronouns.

Does anyone have advice? I guess I probably know how I should handle this, but if anyone has some experiences they'd like to share, it would be very much appreciated.

~Alyssa

Sweetie, unfortunately sortakindamaybe is not gonna work. Until you start presenting totally female there's always going be an excuse for their subconscious to stick to their old gendering of you. It needs to be totally unequivocal that you are now, have always been and will henceforth always be female. And even then it's gonna take a while, and some are just gonna be plain stubborn, whether consciously or subconsciously.

Mina.

this is always going to be a losing battle for some of us. you can change your hair, your name, your face, your genitals, and wear extremely feminine dresses, but there will still always be those 15 people who will look you up and down and say THANK YOU SIR!!!! i swear i know it doesn't help.

i know what you go through more than you know, "normal" people don't understand or care. my wife says when i correct her i'm rude and i don't mean to be, i try and tell other people politely its she, her, miss, etc, or i just let them figure it out on their own, or let someone else (other than the old man) refer to me so they can figure it out.


i sympathize with you 3000%!!!!

Just as there are no boys or girls on the ropes or the belay there are a lot of times when 'you guys' or some male-based varient is in common usage.  You just might be noticing it more. 

It not saying 'you people with the male sex organs' it a call to everyone, but 'ladies' is taken as insulting, often even by women, and "Hey guys...and girls" sounds like - because it is - an afterthought kind of inclusion.  So 'hey guys' 'you guys' has become its own generic.

And language takes a long time, and is very hard, Professor Higgans and Eliza Doolittle not withstanding, to change.  If they accept you in every other way, you might cut them some slack (that slack cutting goes both ways) and see if the language comes around after a while.  I think its hard after knowing someone for years or decades to change what is deeply embedded.

People resist change.  The more insecure they are about themselves, the more that is true.  It's kind of like you changing reflects poorly on them so they can't let go of the old person or something is wrong with them. 

And gender trumps all in this society.  It's the first thing people need to know when they meet someone new.  If they can't gender you they become suspicious and distant, as if you are trying to fool them.

So you kind of have a double whammy here, you're changing your presentation and you're switching genders.  That's more than most people care to be challenged with.

If all they see is the female you and you act like a typical woman they will eventually start to come around.  But be prepared to be cut out of the inside guy stuff.  Once they gender you as female, your 'man card' will be revoked and you'll no longer be one of the guys. 

If the male pronouns continue you'll need to ask yourself if you are still acting as one of the boys.

Julie

In my case, we do not use gender-specific pronouns so much (East Asian, Altaic languages), and in stores, cashiers mostly use gender-neutral nouns when calling their guests.

I remember that I was overwhelemed by the excessive calling me 'sir' in the U.S. Sir or Ma'am was thorny problem for me at that time, and I lamented those gender-oriented languages and wondered why they don't use neutral nouns such as 'customer' or 'person'.

However, sometimes we do call our friends by gender-specific nouns or pronouns. Some friends call me 'sir'-like nouns, but others are rather careful on it. After several talks on my gender issues, some friends eventually ask me which pronoun I prefer. After listening my thought, they do care about it. Nowadays, they jokingly call me by 'lady' or other variants in my langauge. Also their children call me by 'lady' or similar nouns.

My suggestion is that you have better let them know clearly what you want to be called. Then they will take care of it, as I am sure if they are your friends. They just do not know it, and usually think it would be insulting to call a man by a female pronoun.

Tell your friends what you like to be called.

Barbie~~

I'd love to be cut out of the inside guy stuff. But that's not the point here.

I had a street beggar call me "sir" after a bit of hesiatation. Okay, fine. He read me as male. That sucks for me. And I can't figure out how to do sports in "girl-mode" right now, so many of my friends will continue to see me as male. That also sucks. But I can deal with that.

What gets me is that some of my close friends seem to think that using male pronouns is okay. "Dude," "guys," and even my somewhat androgynous given name aren't the problem. "He" is the problem. It's like the freshman who insists on using "Mrs." instead of "Dr." or "Prof." It might be well-intentioned, but it's inappropriate and disrespectful.

As in the case of the professor, I guess it's just a matter of telling them. I just never seem to get a chance. It's a bit awkward and a bit of a chore and so it keeps not happening.

~Alyssa

p.s. Thank you, Barbie. You posted while I was posting. I think you're exactly right. I'm just having trouble getting a chance to tell them.

I have run into this problem with many of my friends both male and female and although it is probably the wrong way to handle it I have found a way that helps with my friends. I in a lighthearted and joking mood I use the wrong pronoun for them (he for the girls and she for the guys) and as I said I keep it lighthearted and when they say something I will let them know why I did it. it seems to get the point across and I have actually had a good laugh with some of them out of it. As I said it may not be the correct way to deal with this but I believe in the old saying if it isn't broken don't fix it and this works well for me.

I have run into the same problem at times, more rare now.  I just hold my head up high, make sure the boobs are visible, and say "Excuse Me ?" ( rather upset ).

Janet

Hi Alyssa,
I'm probably the last one who should give advice on this, as I am not able to dress my gender yet. It's a job/location thing and it kind of sucks.  Anyway, there are some good points here regarding presenting as male sometimes and female other times. I'm sure that doesn't help.  Barbie gave good advice, simply tell them what you prefer.  Your response that you are "having trouble getting to tell them" is, well, a cop out. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude or anything, honestly.  It seems like the the time to tell them is when they use the wrong pronoun. Right at that moment. That is your chance.
Like I said, I'm not where you are, so I'm learning from your question and the responses that I see here.  I just hope that after my response to you, I have the sense to follow that same advice.  Again, my apologies, I don't mean to be rude.

I meant to add also that I'll have to remember the response from Jessie.  I can see that working, too.  Janet, I'll have to wait until I get noticeable boobs!

Quote from: Jessie_Heart on January 27, 2009, 11:14:22 AM
I have run into this problem with many of my friends both male and female and although it is probably the wrong way to handle it I have found a way that helps with my friends. I in a lighthearted and joking mood I use the wrong pronoun for them (he for the girls and she for the guys) and as I said I keep it lighthearted and when they say something I will let them know why I did it. it seems to get the point across and I have actually had a good laugh with some of them out of it. As I said it may not be the correct way to deal with this but I believe in the old saying if it isn't broken don't fix it and this works well for me.

Heh, this approach appeals to my passive/aggressive nature.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 27, 2009, 11:05:39 AM
p.s. Thank you, Barbie. You posted while I was posting. I think you're exactly right. I'm just having trouble getting a chance to tell them.

I think there is your answer. I don't think they are not going to change what they call you untill you ask them to. Socially they would probably be terrified of calling you the wrong thing and so it probably feels safer for them to call you what they always have.

After all this time, there are 3 guys at work who say 'he' in reference to me way too many times.  No matter how long it's been, I'm imprinted in their minds.  Everyone else is good with it, and it feels natural to them.  It would never be an issue if I hadn't transitioned on the job.

So, the other day, Ron looks down my blouse when I bend over to pick something up, I cover the opening, and he laughs lightly.  I looked him in the eye, in front of 4 other salespeople, and said, "Look, Ron....if you're going to be looking down my blouse every chance you get, then it's time to say she and not he.  Right?"  The 4 other people start to  snicker, and Ron looks nervous.  "She's right", they say to Ron.

Another guy, an elderly guy that works with us is starting to exhibit some alzheimer's, but I know he calls me 'he' on purpose.  I stopped him one day, and said, "Mark, are you aware you still refer to me as 'he' to customers?"
"I do?", Mark asks innocently.  "Yeah, Mark.  Every single time." 
"That can't be so", Mark says.  I said, "It doesn't bother me one wit, Mark, but I'm a little concerned for YOU."  Mark smirks.  "Oh?" 
"Yes, Mark.  Doesn't matter to me at all.  But the looks the customers give me when you do it.....  They look at me like....is that guy okay, what....is he crazy?  How strange....he called you he." 
Since then, Mark is careful to call me she. 

Now James was a special case.  He 'slipped' all the time, on purpose, until one day a customer asked me about it.  I said, oh....he just doesn't like lesbians, and figures we must all want to be men."  When James came back, she was furious with him.  She lit him up like a Christmas tree, in front of everyone.  James now thinks that 'she' is more suitable.

All in a days work

Of course, the names have been changed to protect the ignorant.




Bev

Quote from: Miss Bev on January 28, 2009, 06:03:31 PM
After all this time, there are 3 guys at work who say 'he' in reference to me way too many times.  No matter how long it's been, I'm imprinted in their minds.  Everyone else is good with it, and it feels natural to them.  It would never be an issue if I hadn't transitioned on the job.

So, the other day, Ron looks down my blouse when I bend over to pick something up, I cover the opening, and he laughs lightly.  I looked him in the eye, in front of 4 other salespeople, and said, "Look, Ron....if you're going to be looking down my blouse every chance you get, then it's time to say she and not he.  Right?"  The 4 other people start to  snicker, and Ron looks nervous.  "She's right", they say to Ron.

Another guy, an elderly guy that works with us is starting to exhibit some alzheimer's, but I know he calls me 'he' on purpose.  I stopped him one day, and said, "Mark, are you aware you still refer to me as 'he' to customers?"
"I do?", Mark asks innocently.  "Yeah, Mark.  Every single time." 
"That can't be so", Mark says.  I said, "It doesn't bother me one wit, Mark, but I'm a little concerned for YOU."  Mark smirks.  "Oh?" 
"Yes, Mark.  Doesn't matter to me at all.  But the looks the customers give me when you do it.....  They look at me like....is that guy okay, what....is he crazy?  How strange....he called you he." 
Since then, Mark is careful to call me she. 

Now James was a special case.  He 'slipped' all the time, on purpose, until one day a customer asked me about it.  I said, oh....he just doesn't like lesbians, and figures we must all want to be men."  When James came back, she was furious with him.  She lit him up like a Christmas tree, in front of everyone.  James now thinks that 'she' is more suitable.

All in a days work

Of course, the names have been changed to protect the bigots.




Bev

Way to go!!

I think the solution is simple:  come rock climbing with me, pronouns wont be a problem.

... not sure if i actually have any helpful advice, aside from just being direct and telling them what you prefer. I just wanted an excuse to talk about climbing :-P

I say you absolutely have to let them know how you would like them to refer to you and be aware that even then they are still going to slip.  This sucks and is horribly annoying and I totally sympathise with you 100% as it happens to me and I truly detest it when it does.

I just don't understand why people can't seem to take on board what I have told them, what they know to be true but maybe we really are that shallow that we need to be absolutely 100% visually convinced of a persons gender or maybe in other peoples cases it is carelessness or even deliberate maliciousness.

I have encountered all three and I just generally correct people unless it just isn't worth my time but if they keep repeatedly doing it and youhave explained to them how much you hate it when they refer to you that way you really have no choice but to a) suck it up or b) cut off contact with that person.

I'd usually opt for b) but only if I felt they were not at least making an effort to refer to me correctly.

Either way it is one of the most horrifying aspects of being in transition in my opinion.