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Brokeback Mountain question

Started by Nero, January 05, 2009, 06:51:23 AM

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Nero

I just watched Brokeback Mountain and can't tell if they're saying Jack died from a homophobic assault that police are calling a horrific tire accident or if Heath Ledger's character just was afraid that's what it was.
I mean was it supposed to be open to interpretation or was there a clear answer in the film that I missed?

Otherwise, very good, very emotional film.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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mina.magpie

I interpreted it as Jack being killed in a hate crime. Can't say that I'm interpreting it correctly, but considering that he was fairly careless in hiding his sexuality from the people around him, I thought it fairly likely that he would die like that.

Mina.
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fluffy jorgen

If I remember correctly from the book it was a hate crime, yes.
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milliontoone

I read the novelette by Annie Proulx and in that yes it was a hate crime. The movie was a great interpretation of the book and was a truly beautiful love story albeit an extremely tragic one.  Both the leads turned in superb performances and the world is poorer without Heath Ledger that's for sure.
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V M

I'm not much for emotions any more and I haven't seen the film. But my guess would be HATE CRIME. After all, look at the world we live in and the way it's been for thousands of years. Haters are much like thieves, looking for their next score. Unfortunately they take the most precious and valuable thing a person could ever have. Their Life
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Jay

It was a good film, my partner at the time absolutely loved it. I thought how they done it was very good.. it was a little slow. I am not one to watch wishy washy love storys.. but I really liked it. However it was very sad at the end. :(


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Ell

i was planning on boycotting that film, as it somehow managed to offend both straight and gay audiences.

but, it seems, the story by Annie Proulx was very good, and, her intent was merely to write a good story. so i think i'll just read that.

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Nicky

What were you offended by ell?

I watched it and did not find it offensive in the least.
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Arch

Quote from: ell on February 01, 2009, 05:18:22 PM
i was planning on boycotting that film, as it somehow managed to offend both straight and gay audiences.
I think that these days, a lot of gay people will find fault with a film in which one of the principal characters dies. For this very reason, I myself have mixed feelings about Brokeback; it reproduces the same pattern that I've seen over and over in gay-themed movies. In this respect, I think that the film can be considered homophobic as a work of art even if the message of the film is sympathetic to gays. But this is a period piece. Some might say that since the last scenes, and Jack's death, take place only a couple of decades ago, the movie can't be seen as period. But I still call it a period piece in terms of gay history, and I can be more forgiving about the violence because it happened (well, fictionally) in less enlightened times.

I really love this film despite my misgivings. I think that Gyllenhaal and Ledger both turned in top-notch performances--especially Ledger. Anne Hathaway was very good as well. The story is solid, the scenery is terrific, and I liked the score.

I'm curious, though. I haven't done much reading about people's reactions to the film. I know that a lot of homophobic straight people dislike it; that's to be expected. But why do gay people pan it? For the same reasons that I have mixed feelings?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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TamTam

I dunno, I'm gay and I loved it.  Every minute was beautiful to me.  I don't know why it would be a problem that one of them dies; there's tragedy in straight romances, too, why should gay ones suddenly all be happy and joyful?  Where does the plot go then?  God, if we want equality then we want equality- sometimes a principal character dies.  I have no idea what's homophobic about that.

I think the movie itself was saying that while Jack's wife did not explicitly say it was a hate crime, Ennis was afraid it was and he was probably right.
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Ell

Quote from: Nicky on February 01, 2009, 05:41:05 PM
What were you offended by ell?

I watched it and did not find it offensive in the least.

i originally found the idea of it offensive because it seemed to me that they were too much like cowboys. and i felt that was at least one last bastion of straight culture, and should be left alone. in short, i thought it was disrespectful to straight people. (just my opinion).

Quote from: Arch on February 01, 2009, 05:41:19 PM
But why do gay people pan it?

from reviews, i learned that some gay groups complained that there "weren't any gay people" in the film..!  i guess you're not really gay, or trans, until you come out. (just ask Michael Medved).
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TamTam

...What?

Why can't cowboys be gay?

How on earth is that disrespectful to straight people?

It's not like straight people ever had some kind of monopoly on being cowboys. :P  I'm sure there've been a few 'real cowboys' who were gay, just by using logic.
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V M

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:06:38 PM
...What?

Why can't cowboys be gay?

How on earth is that disrespectful to straight people?

It's not like straight people ever had some kind of monopoly on being cowboys. :P  I'm sure there've been a few 'real cowboys' who were gay, just by using logic.
ie - John Wayne - Oh, but he was an actor pretending to be a cowboy
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Ell

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:06:38 PM
...What?

Why can't cowboys be gay?

How on earth is that disrespectful to straight people?

It's not like straight people ever had some kind of monopoly on being cowboys. :P  I'm sure there've been a few 'real cowboys' who were gay, just by using logic.

i am sure you are right. but cowboy movies do not clearly reflect the real world. it's a storybook world of myth and legend. and, and John Wayne, ffs. anyway, though i am not straight, personally, it "seemed" to me to be disrespectful. what the hell do i know?

-ell
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TamTam

And actually, I'm kind of offended that homosexuality is something that can cause disrespect.

Edit- did not see your reply, ell.  But I'm still confused about how it could be disrespectful.  That implies being gay is a 'taint' or something that's bad, but.. it's just a sexual orientation.  Why should it matter if it's a gay cowboy or a gay policeman or a gay whatever?
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V M

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:16:11 PM
And actually, I'm kind of offended that homosexuality is something that can cause disrespect.  It's just a sexual orientation, people.  How can it be disrespectful unless you're also saying that being gay is wrong or bad?
And other than those who rob or harm others, who can say what is wrong or bad?
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Ell

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:16:11 PM
And actually, I'm kind of offended that homosexuality is something that can cause disrespect.

Edit- did not see your reply, ell.  But I'm still confused about how it could be disrespectful.  That implies being gay is a 'taint' or something that's bad, but.. it's just a sexual orientation.  Why should it matter if it's a gay cowboy or a gay policeman or a gay whatever?

well, gay really *is* bad, in the straight world. are they not thinking, "please don't bring your gay ass in my John Wayne domain?"

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Alyssa M.

I'm a huge fan of Annie Proulx, but I've never seen the movie. However, I read "Close Range," the collection fo short stories that includes "Brokeback Mountain," and I've heard her speak on the subject in interviews.

The story is clearly written from Ennis's point, and at the end, nobody is willing to tell him much of anything about Jack's death. He infers from their attitude toward him that he was beaten to death, and there's not much room to imagine otherwise. However, because it's all from Ennis's point of view, it's never stated outright by any witness.

Proulx seems to be rather annoyed by the "gay cowboy" characterization, first of all because (she says) anyone who knows Wyoming knows that there's a huge cultural gulf between sheep and cattle culture. These guys are sheep ranch handsd, not cowboys.

She's also annoyed by the singling out of that story. (She seems to get annoyed a lot -- she's a prickly New Englander who has addopted a prickly rural Western affect.) She intended the story as part of the collection, which she describes as a series of fantasies. There's something impossible and fantastic in all the stories, from the environmentalist rancher, the serial murderer in the desert 55 miles from the gas pump, the meth-addled youths, the mentally disabled sexual deviant, and so on. Everybody knows that none of that exists -- when of course it all does -- and everybody knows that there aren't any gay people in Wyoming.

It's not just a story about gay people; it's a story about people who aren't supposed to exist. Anyway, that's what the author said.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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TamTam

Quote from: ell on February 01, 2009, 07:30:23 PM
well, gay really *is* bad, in the straight world. are they not thinking, "please don't bring your gay ass in my John Wayne domain?"

Well, yeah, some are.  But who cares?  That's like saying integration of schools was disrespectful to the KKK.  Are gay people supposed to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was breaking a stereotype or working in a profession you don't want me to be working in.. I'll stop immediately!"
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Ell

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:42:44 PM
Quote from: ell on February 01, 2009, 07:30:23 PM
well, gay really *is* bad, in the straight world. are they not thinking, "please don't bring your gay ass in my John Wayne domain?"

Well, yeah, some are.  But who cares?

straightness is a valid form, just as queer is a valid form. remember how feminists lashed out against men? i don't want to do that. hate and intolerance can exist in every category.
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