Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

Brokeback Mountain question

Started by Nero, January 05, 2009, 06:51:23 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TamTam

But a movie like Brokeback Mountain isn't intolerance or hatred against straight people. :P It's about ranch hands who happen to form a relationship.  I still have no idea how that's disrespectful to straight people.  As I said, straight people do not have the market cornered on ranch hands, cowboys, or whatever other hyper-masculine jobs are out there.  It's not as though two cowboys forming a relationship suddenly puts the validity of cowboying in doubt, or whatever.  I honestly do not understand where you are getting your reasoning from.

Can I be a fashion model without disrespecting straight women?  Can a man be a construction worker without disrespecting straight men?  At what point are we allowed to stop worrying about 'offending straight people' and realize that any straight person who would take that much offense to a person depicting a gay cowboy is homophobic to begin with?

Sorry, I will not live my life to appease homophobes.  Yes 'straight' is valid just like 'gay' is, my opinion does not dispute that, what it disputes is the idea that gay people should stop being who they are just because somebody might be bothered by us.

Post Merge: February 01, 2009, 07:58:40 PM

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:42:44 PM
Quote from: ell on February 01, 2009, 07:30:23 PM
well, gay really *is* bad, in the straight world. are they not thinking, "please don't bring your gay ass in my John Wayne domain?"

Well, yeah, some are.

When I said "some" here, I meant "homophobes."

Gay is NOT bad in the straight world.  Gay is bad in the homophobic world.

We should not be expected, asked, or encouraged to appease the homophobic world.  That is ridiculous.
  •  

Ell

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 07:56:54 PM
We should not be expected, asked, or encouraged to appease the homophobic world.  That is ridiculous.

i have already stated that this was only my opinion, and that my opinion "do not matter."

one who is wiser than i once said, "ideas cannot be pounded into heads with hammers."
  •  

TamTam

I'm sorry.  Since it's an issue very close to me, I tend to get heated without quite realizing. :-\ I didn't mean to be pushy.
  •  

tekla

I always liked what one of my friends said Brokeback Mountain proves gay love stories are just as boring as straight love stories.'  I never made it past the first half hour.  A couple of explosions and a car chase would have helped it a lot.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ell

it's ok, i am an idiot. none of the things i have said are worth much, compared to Alyssa's post.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 01, 2009, 07:32:14 PM
I'm a huge fan of Annie Proulx, but I've never seen the movie. However, I read "Close Range," the collection fo short stories that includes "Brokeback Mountain," and I've heard her speak on the subject in interviews.

The story is clearly written from Ennis's point, and at the end, nobody is willing to tell him much of anything about Jack's death. He infers from their attitude toward him that he was beaten to death, and there's not much room to imagine otherwise. However, because it's all from Ennis's point of view, it's never stated outright by any witness.

Proulx seems to be rather annoyed by the "gay cowboy" characterization, first of all because (she says) anyone who knows Wyoming knows that there's a huge cultural gulf between sheep and cattle culture. These guys are sheep ranch handsd, not cowboys.

She's also annoyed by the singling out of that story. (She seems to get annoyed a lot -- she's a prickly New Englander who has addopted a prickly rural Western affect.) She intended the story as part of the collection, which she describes as a series of fantasies. There's something impossible and fantastic in all the stories, from the environmentalist rancher, the serial murderer in the desert 55 miles from the gas pump, the meth-addled youths, the mentally disabled sexual deviant, and so on. Everybody knows that none of that exists -- when of course it all does -- and everybody knows that there aren't any gay people in Wyoming.

It's not just a story about gay people; it's a story about people who aren't supposed to exist. Anyway, that's what the author said.
  •  

V M

Yeah, long drawn out emotional river drags with a sad end never did much for me either
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •  

tekla

Yeah, like I said, I never made to the end. 

And no author is every happy with the way Hollywood does their movie, but since they cashed the checks, not much they could do.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

TamTam

  •  


Alyssa M.

Oh, Ell, I never understand why you see youself in such a poor light. I'm always happy to hear your point of view.

Alas, if that post was worth anything, it was probably the most worthwhile thing I've done all weekend. I've had a rough time lately, just too much to deal with, and I've sort of shut down. So I'm glad someone might have appreciated it. :)
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

V M

Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 01, 2009, 09:55:20 PM
Oh, Ell, I never understand why you see youself in such a poor light. I'm always happy to hear your point of view.

Alas, if that post was worth anything, it was probably the most worthwhile thing I've done all weekend. I've had a rough time lately, just too much to deal with, and I've sort of shut down. So I'm glad someone might have appreciated it. :)
The last couple of months have been a real @$$ kicker for me too. Your not alone. I'm glad to have friends here to help me keep going  :)
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
  •  

Ell

Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 01, 2009, 09:55:20 PM
Oh, Ell, I never understand why you see youself in such a poor light. I'm always happy to hear your point of view.

Alas, if that post was worth anything, it was probably the most worthwhile thing I've done all weekend. I've had a rough time lately, just too much to deal with, and I've sort of shut down. So I'm glad someone might have appreciated it. :)

thank you for your kind words. and yes, i liked your post very much.
  •  

Lisbeth

I had been thinking I should see it because people kept talking about it. This discussion makes me want to see it more.

Quote from: ell on February 01, 2009, 08:08:28 PM
i have already stated that this was only my opinion, and that my opinion "do not matter."

Your opinions matter a great deal to me.

Quote from: TamTam on February 01, 2009, 08:33:33 PM
Ell, you're not an idiot. :)

Hear! Hear!

Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 01, 2009, 07:32:14 PM
Proulx seems to be rather annoyed by the "gay cowboy" characterization, first of all because (she says) anyone who knows Wyoming knows that there's a huge cultural gulf between sheep and cattle culture. These guys are sheep ranch handsd, not cowboys.

So this is a literary reference to Mathew Shepherd.

Quote from: tekla on February 01, 2009, 08:22:50 PM
A couple of explosions and a car chase would have helped it a lot.

Ew!
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
  •  

tekla

a huge cultural gulf between sheep and cattle culture

It's huge and at one time led to all out war on the frontier.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Alyssa M.

Quote from: Lisbeth on February 02, 2009, 09:28:36 AMSo this is a literary reference to Mathew Shepherd.

Its publication predates the Matthew Shepherd's murder by a year. The collection, "Close Range," was published later, and there was certainly a resonance between the short story and Shepherd's story.

But in some ways I don't think that the parallel is quite right, anyway. I think that Proulx is getting at something a little deeper about homosexuality, which is that in some real sense it didn't exist in Wyoming in the 1960s. When Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," he was telling the truth. The cultural framework for homosexuality as a valid identity didn't exist there. Queers were a strange and mysterious breed that liven in the city. Jack and Ennis were basically inventing something new.

Though Laramie is hardly the world's most queer-positive town, Shepherd was a well-educated worldly college student who was a teenager in the '90's. His was a different world, though not different enough.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

Lisbeth

Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 02, 2009, 02:01:16 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on February 02, 2009, 09:28:36 AMSo this is a literary reference to Mathew Shepherd.
Its publication predates the Matthew Shepherd's murder by a year. The collection, "Close Range," was published later, and there was certainly a resonance between the short story and Shepherd's story.

I find the name "Shepherd" in this case to be a striking coincidence.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
  •  

Jaimey

All right, I know I'm digging up a topic, but now I'm curious.  I read the story (at work...when I worked at Borders...shhhh, don't tell) and I saw the movie (quite a while back)...going back to the original question...

I thought he was changing a tire on the side of the road and got hit by a truck.  ???  Is my memory bad?  Maybe I should read it again (or at least the end...).


ALSO, I'd highly recommend Now Is the Hour by Tom Spanbauer to anyone who is interested in homosexuality in the West in that time period.  It's a beautiful book and the situations are somewhat similar (at least in terms of isolation/location/time period/farm-ranch).

If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
  •  

Jaimey

Does anyone own Close Range or the short story?  Now I'm REALLY curious and it's midnight...no bookstores open.  :'(
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
  •  

Alyssa M.

The relevant passages are:

[Ennis] "There was two old guys ranched together down home, Earl and Rich ... I wasw, hwat nine years old and they found Earl dead in an irrigation ditch. They took a tire iron to him, spurred him up, drug him around ..."
[Jack] "You seen that?"
[Ennis] "Dad made sure I seen it. ... Hell, for all I know, he done the job."

--

This would be all right, Jack would answer, had to answer. But it he did not. It was Lurleen and she said who? who is this? and when he told her again she said in a level voice yes, Jack was pumping up a flat on the truck out on a back road when the tire blew up. The bead was damaged somehow and the force of the explosion slammed the rim into his face, broke his nose and jaw and knocked him unconscious on his back. By the time someone came along he had drowned in his own blood.

No, he thought, they got him with the tire iron.

(and when he visits her): No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow.

--

And the last page:

Around that time Jack began to appear in his dreams ... but the can of beans with the spoon handle jutting out and balanced on the log was there as well ... The spoon handle was the kind that could be used as a tire iron. And he would wake up sometimes in grief, sometimes with the old sense of joy and release...

--

So as far as Ennis is concerned, from whose point of view the story is told, it was the tire iron.

Hope that helps.

~Alyssa
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
  •  

Jaimey

Thank you.  It does indeed help.  :D  Those sorts of questions just eat away at you...
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
  •