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I may have found an anwser - The Trickster

Started by RebeccaFog, December 31, 2008, 11:49:32 PM

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RebeccaFog

maybe we can see Nero defend his throne.  And make some cash off of selling tickets
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mina.magpie

I've been researching gender variance in myth and legend, and I came across this article that I think y'all might enjoy:

http://www.crystalinks.com/trickster.html

Enjoy! :D

Mina
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ZaidaZadkiel

the trickster is neither "positive" nor "negative".
The trickster is neither "male" nor "female".

As I understand it, that's the whole point of that archetype! It's meant to *trick*. And to trick someone you have to make saidone believe a reality which isn't what thisone is used to.

re: The "joker".
In a way the "trickster" can be anything, but it's not because it "fits every role" but because "no/all roles" is it's role.

The main problem is distinguishing between NULL and *.
Are "All sets of gender" the same as "no sets of gender" ?

If they're different, we end up with:
male <-> female
and
Nullgender <-> pangender

This doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

However, gender as a "social construct" seems to fit that idea, but not so much as a "identity construct", since when one identifies with "neither male nor female" the "social rules for fe/male behaviour" are questioned and sometimes rejected.
I don't see how that depends on "non-gendered" or "all-gendered".

So there's a third gender ?
If that was so, we'd have
male <-v-> female
    androgyne

In which a.g.ness would be merely a "third option".

...

I'm not entirely sure I know what I'm talking about.

PS: Do you guys enjoy breaking rules ?
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Shana A

"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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ZaidaZadkiel

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mina.magpie

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 07, 2009, 09:10:31 PM
If they're different, we end up with:
male <-> female
and
Nullgender <-> pangender

This doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Why not? That's exactly how I see it. All you have to do is look at gender in two dimensions rather than just one:

                        totally bigender (100/100)
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
    (100/0) total man ----- 50/50 ----- total woman (0/100)
                                        |
                                        |
                                        |
                           totally neutrois (0/0)

( witness my ubercool ascii-art skillzzz! ^_^ )

Of course, I don't think the end-points on this little diagram exist - there's no such thing as a perfectly male man or a perfectly female woman, neither is there a total bigender or total neutrois, but there are people that approach either extreme. You'd have another graph representing the physical where this last one represented the mental - i.e. gender identity. somebody totally bigendered would probably show dramatic shifts between male and female, masculine and feminine, while people tending towards the neutrois side of things would be less and less ... attached, for lack of a better word, to a sense of man and woman, till you get an andro who just doesn't find any resonance with either.

Of course, this is just my take on it, and I'm not even an androgyne, so I don't really have a right to comment.

Mina.

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ZaidaZadkiel

I say it doesn't make sense because I can't understand how one would feel "50 non-gendered" ?

I mean, I can imagine someone saying "I have no gender". But saying "I am 25% non-gendered and 75% pan-gendered" sounds weird.

... Ofc, just saying "I am androgyne gendered" sounds pretty weird, too.
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mina.magpie

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 08, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
I say it doesn't make sense because I can't understand how one would feel "50 non-gendered" ?

I mean, I can imagine someone saying "I have no gender". But saying "I am 25% non-gendered and 75% pan-gendered" sounds weird.

... Ofc, just saying "I am androgyne gendered" sounds pretty weird, too.

Hehe. I understand what you mean - I don't really understand it either, but then, I compare it to cis-gendered males not really being able to understand what I mean when I say I'm a girl. (I'm MtF) I don't see non-gender and pan-gender as in opposition though. Rather I see it as degrees of maleness and femaleness. neutrois has none of either, while pan-gender would have lots of both.

As I said though, just my understanding of it.

Mina.
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V M

Quote from: riven_one on February 08, 2009, 01:42:15 AM
Quote from: Zythyra on February 07, 2009, 09:13:53 PM
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 07, 2009, 09:10:31 PM
PS: Do you guys enjoy breaking rules ?

What rules?

Z

There are rules here?  :D
I know for sure that one of my fav. rock bands RULE!!! But I can't decide which one  :laugh:
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Pica Pica

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 08, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
saying "I am 25% non-gendered and 75% pan-gendered" sounds weird.

i've heard it said though.

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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tekla

witness my ubercool ascii-art skillzzz!

Oh mad props on the retro look.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 07, 2009, 09:10:31 PM
PS: Do you guys enjoy breaking rules ?

Yes.

Post Merge: February 08, 2009, 11:27:36 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 08, 2009, 06:06:44 AM
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 08, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
saying "I am 25% non-gendered and 75% pan-gendered" sounds weird.

i've heard it said though.

yeah, I think we dragged ourselves thru this one before.  In that case, we used an almighty circle.  But I understand and agree with the Mina Bird.
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Jaimey

Rules shmules.

I have a mild obsession with mad hatters...weird.
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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Kinkly

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 08, 2009, 06:06:44 AM
Quote from: ZaidaZadkiel on February 08, 2009, 12:33:29 AM
saying "I am 25% non-gendered and 75% pan-gendered" sounds weird.

i've heard it said though.



today I'm
75% Fem
50% Man

I'm more Omni/pan then Null gendered

I'm never totaly male, fem, pan or null
I float in the middle & I'm always just me
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
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