I say my brain works fine, and it's a society that doesn't get it or accept it that's "malfunctioning."

Interesting response, interalia, but what if there is a functional reason for varying gender expression/identities? Not just as some kind of "disorder"
Like if a group of animals or early people needs more members to take on female roles, but also needs more ably reproductive males? So the group pops out a genetic male, who helps take care of the children.. After all, men have the potential to lactate hehe
Kind of like how we try to reason why homosexuality exists in cisgendered people.. to control the population? Or weed out bad genetics?
oh well we can never prove or disprove if trans behavior or gender dysphoria are actual mental illnesses.. Like some of you said, it must be one of those things that just varies like the color of a flower

Evolution is random at best.  As changes occur to a species they can be for better or for worse.  The worse ones, if bad enough, effectively wipe (breed) themselves out.  I cannot say that having a varying gender identity is a product of evolution trying to make up for something we lack as humans with our bi-gender system, I just accept that varying gender identity exists.  Ultimately if having varying gender identities better enables the species as a whole to survive only THEN can we determine if it was a good change.  We cannot forwardly predict whether changes to a species are good or bad, only in hindsight can that be determined.

I consider it a malfunction in the sense that having gender dysphoria currently seems to be counter productive to healthy functioning human life.  If a use is found for it in our societal progression, then it might become something less destructive, but still not wholly good - not if those people who claim that their biology disgusts them are to be believed.  No amount of societal acceptance would seem to bring them peace - only the correct "skin" currently available only through transition/surgery.

Homosexuality is way to common to be a trait strongly selected against (at a population level; obviously not at an individual level). Yet being gay was "counter productive to healthy functioning human life" until the last few decades . Is homosexuality a "malfunction"? Or did it just used to be? In today's society, being transsexual is hardly a desired trait -- but that was not always the case. There are plenty of societies in which gender-variant people (I won't say "transsexual" because they wouldn't see it how we see it) lived quite happily, or even were honored. If anything, being gender-variant was beneficial to one's functioning in life.

And who cares about the evolutionary outcome of some theoretical "trans gene"? I'm not the slightest bit interested in the evolutionary outcome of any particular gene in my chromosomes. I'm a person, not a collection of genes. Anyway, the human species is doomed to extinction, like everything else in this universe. Don't wrap value judgements in a scientific cloak. Science doesn't do values.

wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.

You would ditch that becaues you would rather people belive you just want to be a woman?

more the fool i say.

Interalia:We ignoring natural selection today?
Alyssa is right, trans and Homosexuality dont seem to have selected out, and thus cannot be sufficiently effecting the population as a whole, Also, for it to select, it would have to be a sufficiently transferable gene, not a in uterine modification due to sheer luck.

See im all for that.... whats the problem? some of you act like you dont want to be proven right, that you want to go on forever fighting your loosing battle to just 'be acccepted for who you are with no proof' as if you enjoy the drama and the fight.... Its not just this topic... its scarily prevelant :S

Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 04:22:59 AM
wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.

I'm not sure whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with me here ... seems to be a pattern.  I think it's usually that you're just looking at it in a different way.

Anyway, I think a truly scientific point of view strips away the value judgements and lets you see people as who they are. It's descriptive, not prescriptive. But I just as it can't damn, it can't bless. So I think science can only bring us so far. People will still judge, because there's still the question of how to classify what you observe, and what to do with it. So in the end, the only satisfactory solution is to change society. I can't do that myself, but I can make some good progress within my social circle. That's not an idle hope -- I'm seeing it happen.

Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 04:22:59 AM
wow... Science is one of the few things that could make trans accepted in this modern world where facts hold more value than beliefs....
fictional scenario:
Here is a real cause.... proof that trans is not mental illness, but a genetic variability that is entirely random, and unavoidable.

You would ditch that becaues you would rather people belive you just want to be a woman?

more the fool i say.

While that's true to an extent, it also adds another fortress for people with this genetic variability to hide in and throw rocks at the people who don't, yet who still have the same strength of internal identity but no 'legitimate' explanation for it. And if you give people a means to assert that they're more 'genuine' in their identity than someone else, it will be taken and used as a weapon to strengthen their own position by weakening other people's positions.

While it may be one cause, it isn't the only cause. I have a feeling that this would be lost on a lot of people. I think it's much more productive to go with the "People see themselves the way they do, and as long as it harms none, then regardless of the reasons why, they should be allowed to explore and express this inner identity without fear of discrimination or predjudice."

I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.

Considering that neurosience and psychology hasn't fully figured out how, or why consciousness works yet, let alone how self-perception and self-awareness figure into the Human Equation... that's a tiny bit presumptuous. Nevertheless, you may be right. I guess we'll see.

You are right about one thing, though. There is always an explanation, whether or not it's one that wants to be acknowledged.

Weird.. I saw no value judgements in my post attempted to be backed scientifically.

"I consider it a malfunction in the sense that having gender dysphoria currently seems to be counter productive to healthy functioning human life."

The above is my opinion based on not only personal experience but from hanging around other's like me.

Plus I never said gay or trans were selected against or even would be!  I don't know if I'm reading too much into the responses to my post or if you are reading too much into mine.

In the end it would be nice to know what caused it, but it would be far far nicer for society to accept us as having legitimate difficulties/differences.  You pick the word you like better.

QuotePersonally, I don't care if it is a mental disorder.

Exactly my feelings!

Interalia: i was mostly refering to the post that followed yours hon.

Quote from: Starbuck on January 19, 2009, 07:09:48 PM
not rare, but the symptoms of GID are all too similar... consistant, and the cure is the same for it nomatter what... being yourself. Depression has many causes, cures, and varying sypmtoms...
Its treatable with surgery, and medication. all these things lean it much more towards a medical condition than a mental one... mental conditions can be cured, and the paitent may go along with their life as it was... how many trans people get it 'cured' and carry on as before?

the notion that "the symptoms of GID are all too similar" is way unscientific. in fact, it's specious. and "the cure?" if it is in fact a cure, it is far from perfect.

-ell

Is life infinately more livable after transition than before....


Yes?




then its a cure. an imperfect one granted, but its better than being bloody dead.

Nice post.
I agree.
Long time dead between shopping
Cindy J

Quote from: ell on February 09, 2009, 02:45:25 PM
the notion that "the symptoms of GID are all too similar" is way unscientific. in fact, it's specious. and "the cure?" if it is in fact a cure, it is far from perfect.

-ell

The CURE is a great band. One of my fav.s 

Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.

Diseases have many different causes, and yet we use the same names for them and often treat them in the same or very similar ways. Diabetes -- Type 1 has a partially genetic basis; Type 2 doesn't, at least not known. Cancer -- you can get it from a virus, from environmental exposure, or your genes. And so on. And those are diseases that we understand pretty well. We don't remotely understand the mechanisms behing transsexuality, and probably won't for a very long time. It deals with some of the deepest and most complicated aspects of the human organism, the identity.

Incidentally, homosexualilty is not understood scientifically either, yet people are so much more accepting than they were a generation ago. How did that happen, except by people insisting that, with no particularly compelling scientific backing, that their homosexual identity was valid, and convincing people of it? And why isn't this the obvious path to a better society for transsexual people?

I was under the impression that widespread acceptance of gays began to come about in the 1990s, after news stories began appearing about possible physical, genetic origins for homosexuality. I also think shock and horror at Matthew Shepard's murder contributed a lot to waking up the public about homophobia.

And the biggest impediment to our liberation is still widespread ignorance in the public. We have all the scientific information we need, and the martyrs. What we need now is good PR like the gays had to get the information across.

Quote from: Starbuck on February 09, 2009, 08:18:07 AM
I'm going to disagree there.... if its a genetic cause, its the only cause.... other routes to that are just.... mistaken? (note im refering to the hinted 'trans gene' for m2f ts women.... not exculding other factors of similar grounding may be found for other things.... there is ALWAYS an explanation.

but some explanations are not going to be genetic, of the sort, "the individual has a female gene," etc.

some explanations are going to be IS related, of the sort, "the individual does not have all female traits nor all male traits," etc.

IS implications, though they introduce a whole array of non-binary sex and gender issues, cannot be ignored.

-ell

you do realise that Intersex already HAS genetic explanations?