I am not very familiar with feminists's theories. I know that some have been anti-trans like Janice Raymond. In Sweden the leading feminist for example said that all men should pay extra tax because of family violance. (Women do about 40% of family violance)

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 03:04:48 PM
I am not very familiar with feminists's theories. I know that some have been anti-trans like Janice Raymond.

Exactly, so perhaps some further education wouldn't be amiss? Sound bites seldom capture the essence of what anyone says or writes. They are not made with care for nuance and context.

Nichole

Quote from: Mister on February 16, 2009, 12:01:27 PM
Also, it's pretty disgusting to me how much misogyny there is within the FTM community.

Mister, could you elaborate? Perhaps different FTM "communities" are much less misogynistic than others.

I was very misogynistic as a young adult and had to work hard at not being so. Even my brief flirtation with bisexuality was misogynistic, as I only saw women as objects. Oddly enough, this was a step forward for me. And I kept on moving forward.

I think it's natural for a lot of FTMs to have some degree of misogynistic feeling and a desire to distance ourselves from women. So many of us were seen as women when we didn't consider ourselves to be women. So we resent the company we're thrown into, and we hate ourselves because we know we're not really women--but everyone sees us as women...it gets pretty messy.

But I should think that most of us would work this out in therapy or on our own. If we have any true misogyny, it should be a temporary condition that sprang up as a result of the cruel circumstances that life and society have imposed upon us.

I don't hate women, although there are quite a few aspects of women, ways of thinking that seem overwhelmingly female, that I still don't understand. And I support equal rights for all genders. But I do tend to distrust women more than I do men; I take longer to let them in; and I don't really have any female friends, only acquaintances.

I suppose a lot of this comes from the reasons I was detailing above; but in my case, I also have some serious mommy issues to work through in therapy. I frequently have to remind myself that it's okay to trust individual women because, unlike Her, they haven't done anything bad to me yet. It can be a hard struggle, but I'm game.

P.S. I wonder, is there an equal degree of...misandrony (well, the term "misanthropy" doesn't work here) in the so-called MTF community?

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

Please read Men are Not Cost Effective by June Stephenson.

I'm guessing you're projecting some of your personal experience here.

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Post Merge: February 16, 2009, 05:16:04 PM

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QuoteMister, could you elaborate? Perhaps different FTM "communities" are much less misogynistic than others.

Gladly.

I say within the community because it's absolutely individuals, not the community as a whole.  As FTMs, we were raised female.  We have no excuse for sexist behavior.  But I think in an effort to be hypermasculine and distance oneself from the feminine, some FTMs get downright misogynistic.

Example- I was at a talk that Dr. Miro gave here in San Francisco about 1 month ago.  A straight ID'd FTM asked Miro, "Can you make my cock big enough to make my woman gag?"

Clearly, there is a lot wrong with this statement and this dude seems to have forgotten where he came from.  It's a shame, really, considering this guy is about 6 months on T and still awaiting his surgery.  He's forgotten that his bound breasts make him an object, not a person, and even worse he's perpetuating that cycle of patriarchal BS on his girlfriend. 

Hopefully she sees the light and leaves him.

Quote from: Mister on February 16, 2009, 05:06:27 PM


Example- I was at a talk that Dr. Miro gave here in San Francisco about 1 month ago.  A straight ID'd FTM asked Miro, "Can you make my cock big enough to make my woman gag?"

thats just gross to say in a professional setting (though some people do that kind of crap for the lulz or whatever)

i think what SomeMTF is getting at is that in some places, feminism has become the new patriarchal misogyny (misandry, and yes there seems to be a lot of it in the MTF community, AndrewLC will attest to that  ). masculinism is the idea, much like feminism, that men should not have to be more like women to be respected in society. in other words, men should be proud of being men, embrace all that that means, and respect other people the same way. throwing the balance off too far in either direction leads to a lot of unhappy, unfulfilled people.

that's not to say masculinism is the same as your average macho womanizing jerk, far from it. the key word here is MAN, not guy, dude, bro, or boy. i think what feminism tries to be but fails a lot of times in practice, is a movement about liberation, self fulfillment, and ultimately respect for diversity.  this diversity should embrace the individual's masculinity, femininity AND any other gender expression you can think of, not glorifying one or the other.

Quotethats just gross to say in a professional setting (though some people do that kind of crap for the lulz or whatever)

that's gross to say in any setting.  also, this was not FTM-only space.  there were partners of FTMs present, as well as the 60 or 70something year old former professor of Miro's.  Do you think that guy wanted to see his former protege being grilled on whether or not he could induce gagging?

i was agreeing with you o_O maybe i'm misreading but it looks like you thought i was siding with Mr. Cocky LOL

I got that, drain.  your mention of a 'professional setting' brought out extra RAEG at the event.

gotcha. i dont post on forums a lot so.....yeah. there's always gotta be one like that. so annoying

Quote from: Arch on February 16, 2009, 11:29:11 AM
One thing I dislike about the term "feminist" is that it has so many meanings now and such negative connotations--and such specific connotations to some people when they apply it to one sex or the other.

But anyway, I'm a humanist.

Yeah, this. I don't like the term "feminist" because of the negative connotations; people always think of self-righteous men-hating lesbians lol. I don't think women are the "better sex", I don't think men are either. I'm for equality of all people; if that labels me as a feminist I'll accept that

Why not?  Some of the most out spoken feminists I know, personally, are men. 

Janet

Quote from: SomeMTF on February 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM
Well, many innoccent boys are victims of violance and when they tell parents they punish them. In case we do not accept that males are humans as much as females  and deserve the same protection the speech about gender equality is irrelevant.

That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I don't believe so-called masculinism has ANY place in any community, let alone a female one.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 16, 2009, 10:28:23 PM
That is seriously the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. I don't believe so-called masculinism has ANY place in any community, let alone a female one.

misandry ^

Quote from: DRAIN on February 16, 2009, 10:59:02 PM
misandry ^

OK, might we substitute reasonable discussion for labeling and name-calling, please?

Attaching a label to someone doesn't make their pov or argument wrong. It simply attaches a label to it which may not even be appropriate to what they are saying.

It would have been nice if she had fleshed out her reasoning somewhat, but she didn't. Calling her a name doesn't flesh out anything either.

Nichole

sure- i definitely know some guys who are feminists. i'm still a feminist.

Quote from: Nichole on February 16, 2009, 11:32:08 PM
OK, might we substitute reasonable discussion for labeling and name-calling, please?

Attaching a label to someone doesn't make their pov or argument wrong. It simply attaches a label to it which may not even be appropriate to what they are saying.

It would have been nice if she had fleshed out her reasoning somewhat, but she didn't. Calling her a name doesn't flesh out anything either.

Nichole

I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the power class's struggle against the weaker class. masculinism is a ridiculous notion. It isn't needed in the least. Measuring the "oppression" of men against the oppression of women obscures the real issue - men's oppression against women. Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 17, 2009, 12:16:21 PM
I refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of the power class's struggle against the weaker class. masculinism is a ridiculous notion. It isn't needed in the least. Measuring the "oppression" of men against the oppression of women obscures the real issue - men's oppression against women. Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

OK, that fleshed out her comment quite well, no? And I totally agree.

The "masculinism" idea is kinda like the Iron-John movement! Ya know, that men need spirtuality as well thang begun by Robert Bly back in the 90s.

Or its like the reverse racism shade whereby white folk are treated horribly unfairly by a system that isn't "color-blind" now -- while we conveniently forget that nothing is ever "color-blind" and sure as heck hasn't been to date. Now we suddenly want "color-blindness" as though nothing ever happened of a racialist nature over the past 400 years. "O, let's just erase all that and start from scratch."

That's all well and good until you realize that "scratch" for some is about 50 meters down the track prior to the beginning of the 100 meter dash!! There they stand in all their suited glory chatting about the horrid way they are treated and about the obvious superiority they display when they manage to eke out victory after victory with a "mere" 50 meter head-start.

Yep, I think she fleshed that out very well indeed.

Nichole

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on February 17, 2009, 12:16:21 PM
Any legitimate claim held by men's rights activists are already addressed by feminism.

This is not true. At least for many feminist.

yeah the iron john movement. and i wasn't calling her a misandrist, i was calling her comment misandRY. big difference.

i don't think the real issue is men oppressing women, it's anyone oppressing anyone regardless of WHY. sticking to masculinism vs feminism and things like that creates more of a divide in the issue rather than getting rid of it. kinda like if there wasn't such a hard lined binary in gender and gender roles, a lot of us wouldn't face so much discrimination over being transgender.

I do not follow any dogmatical ideology. I was nearly only liberal against genderpart of Fair Pair Act of 2009 in some political website. I think independently.