Quote from: mtfbuckeye on February 22, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
but that 100%, steadfast, know in my bones that I AM A WOMAN feeling? I've never had that.

Ya hit the nail on the head on that one for me.  Can't tell you how many times I've looked in the mirror and wished I were a woman instead of just trying to look more like one, but deep inside I know that I'm not.  Wished I were a man, too, but even after 52 years of practice I still haven't gotten that one right either.


I agree with you, Nicky, on your thoughts about Androgyny.  To my way of thinking, Androgyne is just an umbrella term for those who don't identify their gender as male or female at the current time.  If one were to take a look back through the archives of the Androgyne section of this forum, there have been many discussions of differing "types" of androgynes, but the one thing we had in common was that none of us identified as female or male. 

As far as looking androgynous, that is a presentation and could be chosen by anyone, regardless of their true gender.  I have seen androgynous folks who identified as both male and female, gay and straight.  Heck, I've even met a few that didn't even realize they were presenting that way.  In my mind, I don't think of someone who looks androgynous to be any more likely to truly be an androgyne than them identifying as a male or female. 

....L

I think this is more of an ideal world situation thread than "I want the other body" sort of thread.  If my life and experience would be exactly the same, then I think a male body would be more comfortable.  That doesn't make me ftm, though.  I do realize that realistically, if I were male bodied, I probably would have been pressured from the opposite angle (although...there were a lot of mixed signals when I was a kid...).  I agree that there could be some transexuals in denial on here, but I don't know that we could make that argument just based on this thread. 

Like others have said, I don't think being in the opposite would really change anything for me.  But saying that, I think if I were born in a male body, I would probably feel more comfortable flirting with girls....

Quote from: Susan on February 22, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
Many of you are going to find this insulting. It's not my purpose to attack any individuals or groups.

Several posts from one or more of the pages in this thread are clearly Transsexuals in denial. Androgyne is about the merging, blending, or nullification of gender traits. Not what basically amounts to transsexuality light.  If you are a androgyne and were born in a male or a female body, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because Androgyne is all about reaching the middle. Several androgynes in this thread got it exactly right. While others said if they got a body of the other gender they would focus on gender binary typical roles for that gender.

This is the part some may find insulting but again that isn't my intention.

There is no stigma attached to transsexuality other than what YOU allow to be. Any stigma is all in your mind. So if you are a transsexual hiding in Androgyne clothing looking for an easy way out, it's time to look at come out of the androgynous closet, and be what, and most importantly who you really are!

The funny thing is while I don't identify in that manner, this same statement could be aimed directly at me as well.

Oh I am female and as such dress in my gender role on a daily basis but I do it in an androgynous manner. I aim for the middle so that those who don't know I am a transsexual won't figure it out. Oh the clues are there if you look, including the breasts which HRT blessed me with, but most people don't look beyond the surface.  I have many reasons. I know of at least two GLBT murders in my community since 1990. I don't want any confrontations, I just want to blend in. Sure friends and family know but other than that I keep to my self. Basically what I am saying is don't get too upset, because I am standing right there in with those I am castigating.

That's a little bit limiting surely?

Men and women like to play the androgynous role, saying it's denial is a little bit judgmental in my personal opinion.

I'm a woman, but I'm an androgynous one because I choose to be so not because I'm denying anything. I have GG Lesbian friends who are the same, what's the difference? It's how I am and how I'm happy, and lastly how people like me. In my heart of hearts I don't consider this denial

The androgyne label is rather slippery in many ways because it can apply to many kinds of people/situations. I know that susan has her definition and it applies to this board and that's ok.

For me personally it's a feeling of being in the middle between the binaries, about 60% male and 40% female.

I can definitely see where a mtf or a ftm person might land in the androgyne spot for awhile as they make decisions about their own future. Its a imperfect process that many of us are going thru, and if you feel like an androgyne then so be it, and welcome to the party. There is no one here that is going to argue with you, and all are welcome.

I am only being androgyne until they invent a surgery so I can become the wolf I know I am inside.

No, I'm joking. I actually am an angel with wings and all that.

I identify as an androgynous male, but I'm not terribly certain I am not simply androgyne.  So with that in mind...

1) If I am in fact an androgynous male given a female body, I'd grow up thinking I was a boy and be emotionally horrified with my body.  I'd be unhappy with dolls, poetry, gossip, and glitter, simply because that's simply because I don't take an interest in those things now.  I wouldn't care for skirts and dresses (and definitely not the frilly ones), but I would prefer them to what boys/men wear for special occasions (unless I get into or am getting "the grass is greener on the other side" syndrome).  I'd grow out my nails a bit, but it'd be out of laziness rather than a deliberate effort.  I'd probably still get heavily into math (in spite of society's efforts to make me afraid of it), but I doubt I'd end up playing the baritone in band (since I didn't take much control of that decision, I probably would have been channeled into a different direction).

When I eventually become an adult, I'd probably get hormones and maybe get a reduction if my boobs were too big (if they were small, I probably wouldn't care).  And I'd probably still want to wear dresses and skirts for special occasions, confusing the heck out of everyone I knew.  But I'd probably still develop a casual/moderate interest in sports as an adult, still play video games, and be attracted to women, so many guys wouldn't mind.

2) If I am in fact a genderless androgyne, pretty much everything would work out the same as above, except I wouldn't have body integrity issues.  Odds are I wouldn't pick up on the fact that I was an androgyne (and would identify as female), because I'd probably get into more confrontations over academic/employment access than the way I dress, and those confrontations would be much more clearly a social dysfunction.  Of course, the stigma of men in dresses is likewise the fault of society's discrimination rather than the individuals breaking the social norms, but this idea is far less understood than discrimination regarding merit and access against women (which in turn is far less accepted than it should be).

I think again this thread has fallen apart because of the similarities of the word androgyne and androgynous.

Wanting to look androgynous doesn't make you an androgyne...it can't, because a look is not an identity. A look may resemble an identity, but to look something is not to be it.  I concede that probably all androgynes would want to look more androgynous...but that's not where the identity lies.

(Personally I find that an androgynous look doesn't even look like a combination of male/female or neither. You see an 'androgynous' person and you can tell which they are. It seems to me to be just a unisex fashion statement, but there we are).

I think when loads of attention is concentrated on the 'look' of androgyny then people feel confused, distressed and worried. People who are psychologically neither male or female (or both) feel they can't live up to the ideal of what an androgyne is supposed to do or supposed to be.

But there is no supposed about it, you say to yourself, am I a male...no....Am I a female....No. Bosh! Androgyne. (Or whatever terms you prefer). And that is it.



- What would I do in a differently sexed body? Whatever felt right at the time. But what I do would be reacted to and interpreted differently if I were female rather than male bodied.

As a male I am expected to seek control and independence...so when I seek co-operation and relience I am seen as weak...if I were female, this would be more socially acceptable.

However if I were female and expected to seek co-operation and reliance when I asserted my independence I would be seen as bossy and controlling ...and I would thinking that if I were male it would be more socially acceptable.

Of course there is more lee-way for a woman to seek independence than for a man to seek dependence, so I reckon I would be freer in a women's body. Also if I were pretty I could get away with loads of stuff (a handsome male is only a threat).

But I'm not, so I'll enjoy what I can.

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 24, 2009, 08:29:50 AM
I think again this thread has fallen apart because of the similarities of the word androgyne and androgynous.

Wanting to look androgynous doesn't make you an androgyne...it can't, because a look is not an identity. A look may resemble an identity, but to look something is not to be it.  I concede that probably all androgynes would want to look more androgynous...but that's not where the identity lies.

Harrumph!  Harrumph!

Quote from: Jaimey on February 23, 2009, 02:24:10 AM
I think this is more of an ideal world situation thread than "I want the other body" sort of thread. 

This brings back the old discussion of wanting SRS, but not to go Opposite but rather to make one Intersexed---both male and female at the same time.  Now that would be the perfect surgery for an Androgyne...too bad the parts are made from the same limited material.

....L

P.S.  Please no jokes about never leaving the house...sometimes we have to be above such petty comments.

I guess I can be a hurrumpher, it can be good to hurrumph.

Quote from: Susan on February 22, 2009, 12:23:05 PM
Many of you are going to find this insulting. It's not my purpose to attack any individuals or groups.

If this is the way you are when you insult people, fire away.

Quote
Several posts from one or more of the pages in this thread are clearly Transsexuals in denial. Androgyne is about the merging, blending, or nullification of gender traits. Not what basically amounts to transsexuality light.  If you are a androgyne and were born in a male or a female body, it wouldn't matter. Why? Because Androgyne is all about reaching the middle.

I consider myself a transsexual in remission (the days of being in denial are in the past), but the way I see it this isn't incompatible with being androgyne. Gender is a many-splendoured thing, and there are lots of ways to blend the gender traits.

I grew up thinking that I was a boy -- the physical evidence was quite clearly there -- but unable to learn to even tolerate many of the things boys were supposed to enjoy. As a direct result of my gender conflict  I drifted to activities, interests and modes of thought that are not typically male but not typically female either, and by now this is something that no medical treatment of the underlying transsexuality could change. Now, if I had been born either fully a boy or fully a girl I would likely have grown into a somewhat more traditional role, but since I didn't I had to find a middle ground. And I like it there.

One of the interesting experiments I've had with my gender in the past few months started late last autumn when I was asked to do some work-related stuff in Second Life. Now, my initial plan was to be completely gender-fluid, since it's possible to choose one's gender freely and change it at will. I stayed 'physically' androgyne for about two weeks, before settling for a female body. It was quite a surprise to find how important it was to have my avatar be anatomically correct, considering that I have no intention whatsoever to show those anatomically correct details to anyone. On the other hand, as a person I'm still the same -- the main difference in my behaviour is the way I have much more options to dress up when the need arises. Funny thing, though: I've always hated suits, but in that environment, with a female body, it's entirely all right.

Perhaps it was pretty close to the truth when I've half-joked about being a genderqueer woman in a male body.

  Nfr

My male self is kind of greedy and money oriented. Also of questionable moral values. So I'd probably be a hooker. Genevieve

Quote from: Seshatneferw on February 24, 2009, 04:16:22 PM
Now, my initial plan was to be completely gender-fluid, since it's possible to choose one's gender freely and change it at will. I stayed 'physically' androgyne for about two weeks, before settling for a female body.

Nfr,

I am assuming that you are talking about one's gender presentation, and not their true gender-nature itself.  A person can choose their presentation (with all its benefits and penalties), but you are the gender you were born to be and there is isn't much choice in that matter.

I only thought I might clear that up in case someone is reading and gets confused.  If I am the one confused, please let me know...sadly, confusion happens.

....L

laurry, I was referrring to the male attitude in a female body. Genevieve

Quote from: Laurry on February 24, 2009, 09:50:45 PM
I am assuming that you are talking about one's gender presentation, and not their true gender-nature itself.  A person can choose their presentation (with all its benefits and penalties), but you are the gender you were born to be and there is isn't much choice in that matter.

Well, yes, although in the context of virtual worlds 'presentation' covers a bit more ground than in the real world -- most obviously, over here physical sex is separate from gender presentation, but is it really in an environment where one can change the physical appearance at will? I'm not sure it is, but I'm not sure it isn't either.

My behaviour hasn't changed all that much, so in that sense this experience has strengthened my belief that on this level I'm somewhere between the two main genders. In terms of gender presentation I'm a bit more feminine when I have a (virtual) female body, but that too is largely simply adapting to the cultural expectations. The only aspect where I do have a somewhat firmer preference than I thought is my body: contrary to what I thought, when given complete freedom I'd stick almost exclusively to a female one.

  Nfr