Quote from: Enigma on November 17, 2007, 03:36:47 PM

Quote from: Emmalene on November 17, 2007, 05:26:43 AM
"That and I cringe when I hear it becuase it's usually the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes" variety that lives vicariously through support group meetings and talks about being "trapped"."

But what exactly is a "creepy hair straight male wearing womens clothes" and why do you feel you are above such people? It sounds very prejudiced and condescending.

How do I define "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"?  Actually I just repeated the exact phrase you used in your first post.  How do I define it though?  I think the real question we haven't answered is why does the phrase "trapped" creep us out?

I only speak for me, but it has alot to do with why I avoid support group meetings.  Not that there aren't some people there worth getting to know (in fact one of the greatest people I had the pleasure of knowing, an FtM, I met through one such support group meeting), but they are often dominated by crossdressers who use the meeting as their only outlet for their crossdressing, that is of course if its not saturday night and they're not at the bar.  Its the same reason my first gender therapist had to remind his patients that while they could dress however they chose, that he worked in an office building and they had to show some level of, um, decency.

Society at large puts us all in the same boat (the leaky one that's gonna sink and drown all of us hopefully), but when a garden variety crossdresser/->-bleeped-<- dresses like a hooker, and generally objectifies women, I find it in really bad taste when they turn around and talk about feeling "trapped" and how they'd get "the op" if only...<insert lame excuse here>.  That to me is the "creepy hairy straight male wearing womens clothes"

So to wrap this up, I don't think I'm above them, but I do think they unwittingly (and I hope unintentionally) marginalize the pain, suffering and trauma that goes along with even the most successful TS outcomes (transition sounds a little too metaphysical at this point) by treating the hormonal/surgical route as some weekend fantasy.

As someone who would also feel a little out of my element and uncomfortable at a gathering of transgendered people dressed as hookers (I'm more of a cute shirt and pants girl), I wouldn't try to rationalize my discomfort by claiming that they wronged other people ("they marginalize the pain, suffering and trauma...") or use rhetorical devices like "they objectify women". I might be a little bummed that I went to a TG gathering and did not fit well there but that does not change the fact that they did nothing to me. They have done nothing to my pain, suffering or trauma if they are reluctant to make such a big decision like getting the operation (which shouldn't even be my business anyway why or why they don't), nor have they done anything to wrong women simply because they are sexually objectifying themselves and nobody else.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 19, 2007, 07:10:08 AM
As someone who would also feel a little out of my element and uncomfortable at a gathering of transgendered people dressed as hookers (I'm more of a cute shirt and pants girl), I wouldn't try to rationalize my discomfort by claiming that they wronged other people ("they marginalize the pain, suffering and trauma...") or use rhetorical devices like "they objectify women". I might be a little bummed that I went to a TG gathering and did not fit well there but that does not change the fact that they did nothing to me. They have done nothing to my pain, suffering or trauma if they are reluctant to make such a big decision like getting the operation (which shouldn't even be my business anyway why or why they don't), nor have they done anything to wrong women simply because they are sexually objectifying themselves and nobody else.

You started this thread defining crossdressers as creepy hairy straight men wearing dresses and TSs as being "trapped".  I gave you what my experience has been, if yours has been different, well that's life. 

I don't disrespect Crossdressers, we're all seen the same way by society at large.  That their issues are resolved by being jane on the weekend and joe during the week and mine aren't is irrelevant to anyone outside our community.  I would be stupid, at best, to alienate people within my own community.

Other then that, are you trying to bait me for a flame war, or is it just me?

Quote from: Enigma on November 19, 2007, 09:12:59 AM
You started this thread defining crossdressers as creepy hairy straight men wearing dresses and TSs as being "trapped".  I gave you what my experience has been, if yours has been different, well that's life. 

I don't disrespect Crossdressers, we're all seen the same way by society at large.  That their issues are resolved by being jane on the weekend and joe during the week and mine aren't is irrelevant to anyone outside our community.  I would be stupid, at best, to alienate people within my own community.

Other then that, are you trying to bait me for a flame war, or is it just me?

I actually have not defined cross dressing in any of my posts. You may notice that "creepy hairy straight males wearing dresses" was in quotes. That is because I was paraphrasing genetic females who are condescending towards cross dressers while accepting of transsexuals and drag queens. My problem was that I was picking up on a similar attitude in your posts.

My personal definition of cross dressing, which might be a little different from this forum's definition, is that it is an action, nothing more or less. Because cross dressing is an action, and transsexualism is a description of a type of person and not a description of what they do, the two labels are not mutually exclusive. One can be both and transsexuals I've known have gone through a cross dressing phase before taking that bigger step.

That being said, I agree with you on important things. Like I said earlier, I would be just as uncomfortable as you at a meeting of transgendered people dressed as hookers. I also don't like the term "trapped in a body of a man" because it sounds cliche. Your description "thirty something years lost" I like much better and certainly strikes close to home with me. So no I'm not trying to flame. I'm just asking for a little caution in the things you say because sometimes words can hurt more than physical pain.

Quote from: Emmalene on November 19, 2007, 05:44:57 PM
I actually have not defined cross dressing in any of my posts. You may notice that "creepy hairy straight males wearing dresses" was in quotes. That is because I was paraphrasing genetic females who are condescending towards cross dressers while accepting of transsexuals and drag queens.

I think its a matter of how everyone plays their role.  Drag Queens are entertainers, by definition, I've known many non-queer people that love a good drag show just as much as the next gay boy.  TSs either blend in (stealth), or at least try to wear clothing appropriate to their age range (at least trying not to attract attention to themselves);  I would say the same is true for crossdressers that choose to express themselves that way.

Where we get ourselves in to trouble, as a community, is when we dress out of context for the situation.  Shop for groceries in your finest pearls if you insist, but I don't know many non-TG women that do that.  Dress like a hooker if that's what expressing yourself means to you, but I wouldn't exactly show up to church on Sunday that way either.

Gaining acceptance, whether you're a crossdresser or TS, is hard to do when you insist on violating social customs in the name of self expression.

I hope this makes sense.
I wanted to be a girl since I can remember. However rightly or wrongly (life is that way) I got socialized as a male. I happened to have the genetalia by which those determinations were made. The was little or no choice and a substantial dis incentive to behave the way I felt. Not just in identity, many other things as well. I never felt like I fit then. Its never gone away. As most peiople do in their lives, the make the best of what they have to work with.
At some point I became  a parent(ready or not) and had to decide whether to take that seriously or just keep trying to go my own way. I decided to for lack of better term "grow up". But I was not ready, but I rushed into it anyway. I saw it as a way to influence the dysfunction in my family as it were. I was going to do everything different than the bad influences I had growing up. I was motivated to be there for my new family.  The bottom line is that it was my choice. I feel had I not decided to adopt a traditional male role at the time, it would just feed the dysfunction.
So here it is 50 years later. I no longer have that previous burden and Sylvia wants out. But how? I ask isnt it kind of late for that? My entire life has been built around those previous conditions and decisions. How do I change the rules? I still don't fit. I don't have the socialization experience. Not worried about the genitalia since I don't use it for anything anymore. The dysphoria is something most of us have in common but for entirely different re3asons based on our unique experience. This is a complex , dynamic process to be sure. Ive just been letting it play out to see where it goes and learning to ignore a lot of the unnecessary anxiety I unfortunately picked up along the way.

I read a considerable amount on neurology and brain functions (pretty geeky huh?) But I think the ultimate answer must lie in this realm. With billions of neural connections, there is bound to be statistical variation. We already see it in other life forms. I don't see why it is so difficult to  accept it in humans. To add to the variation the brain is interactive and tends to rewire itself depending on circumstances. So we have at least a double complex of functionality.  (Talk about your subspace phase comparator matrix  )So how can we reduce this to written terms? Beats me.
I still don't fit, maybe never will. I figure I am partially wired as both, (I don't rally care what semantics are used),with most of my training as male. But if I shift my focus off of that and get re socialized as female then I can at least say I tried both. Sylvia is getting her chance to be somebody.

xoxo
Sylvia H

I would think that the best way to gain a better understanding of your self, as well as accepting yourself, is by working with a psychologist specializing in GID issues. Everyone is different, and there's a wide spectrum from black to white. I've crossdressed as far back as I can recall, and publicly since I left my parents home. Most women wear slacks, jeans, or other casual wear, Tshirts, loose tops rather than skirts or dresses most of the time, and so do I. I fit nicely into a size 11 jean, and I feel good showing myself off, just as a woman would. My genitals are small, so it's very easy to slip a panty liner into my panties so that I can present a nice, smooth contour as it should be. The reason that I do this, is because I'm SUPPOSED to dress this way. I need to wear a bra, otherwise I frequently feel as though my breasts are missing. I have anxiety attacks when wearing a jacket and tie, because that's when I feel as though I'm crossdressing. Other than that, I'm a MTF TS, which is something separate. It's not about the clothing. It's more about how I relate to myself. I'm at the point where I need to proceed with transition, but not everyone needs to do this, and it certainly brings with it a host of problems that were not experienced before. The goal is to find harmony within ones self, which is something that I've never had.

Am confused now....I call myself a crossdresser, but don't dress for sexual thrills or feelings, dress to feel feminine and female.  It's not the women's clothes that are the "turn on" it being as much like a woman as I can be.  I wanted to be a little girl when I was small, wanted to be one when I turned into a teenager, then society got me and away I went.

What does that make me now...

QuoteIt is mostly genetic women close to the GLTG community

can someone translate this?  GLTG community?

Quote from: Mister on February 16, 2009, 06:16:18 PM
can someone translate this?  GLTG community?

I think that means Gay Lesbian Trans Gendered.


My take on this...
The quick version
I think we are taking a myopic view of the situation and using language which naturally generates conflict. I personally don't see FCD's (Fetishistic Cross Dressers) as part of our movement but I think it is worthless to paint them as hideous trolls, because even this trans community can end up generalizing CD's to be equivalent to FCD's. Finally, even we who have become so acquainted with the fungible nature of gender and sexuality, are beginning to limit ourselves to strict categories. I think our experiences should have taught us that humans rarely experience their feelings in strictly binary terms. Try using a spectrum instead (for the millionth time check out the Kinsey Scale as an example)

The long version
I think there are a few errors with how we are discussing this topic that are leading to problems in our understanding. The first is "creepy hairy men" or whatever non-sense that is. That phrase is inherently divisive and hurtful. It frames the experiences of certain people into an inescapably negative light. Naturally as each group pushes away from it we end up pushing others in and that only makes them want to push harder to get out. Using language like this is damaging because it hurts people who are Questioning (an oft overlooked entity in the LGBTQ community) and may hinder their progress toward their own truth by making them apprehensive about entertaining various possibilities for themselves (In addition to hurting the self esteem of those already coming ot terms with that in themselves).

The fetishistic CD, while certainly affording "the rest of us" a bad name is not someone we should demonize for that never did anybody any good. It is prudent to point out that one can be a CD without it being fetishistic however why is that where it ends?

Explore this dangerous concept: Why can't someone be both fetishistic and non-fetishistic? Simply because one is an FCD does not mean that they are then incapable of discovering the joy that a CD may find in alternate gender expression. I agree it is unlikely, but not impossible.

This leads me to the next problem I see in our exploration of the issue. We are limiting our understanding of these issues to strict categories which, as our experiences with gender etc. have taught us, are rarely ever honored as strictly as the majority may wish they were.

I encourage you to view these issues with a spectrum (check out the Kinsey Scale as a good example of how this works). Someone's TS and CD may be better explored in ratings ranging from 1 to 10 as opposed to either strictly on or off.

I may be hairy but I try to take care of that. Not creepy I hope. Dressing like a hooker is not my thing. Prefer to be a gentile and charming lady. Genevieve