Cool, thought that was what you were saying.

No guitar for me today, spent three hours having to play the same bass riff for a friend who is singing tomorrow... It hurts even to type!

Take care

Quote from: tekla on March 06, 2009, 07:26:03 AM
Ahh yes, fewer choices makes you more free.  Got it.  Matter of fact, we just had 8 years of that kind of thinking.

Explain to me how you were personally persecuted in the last eight years and the rights you personally lost that impacted your life.

Or would you have preferred to be in another building like the Sears Tower if it was attacked. 

I can tell you though how Mr Obama is going to change your freedoms.  He seriously looking at socialized Healthcare.    If your grandparents need a particular drug, and the ods are not with them then his plans would deny them the drug.  This is serious as it impacts your right to live.

I actually work in the integration workspace and have spent 5-plus years working with some companies to become HIPAA Compliant.  Becoming compliant involves major cost(s) that many small companies can not afford.  Some of these small companies have innovative home grown systems that are profitable and effiecient, but let the government step in and force them to become compliant and these will go away.  This man will rob us of our ability to innovate and grow small companies to be successful.

And a far as the Socialist/Communist slant, I developed a product that has many commercial uses, but also a passive use for the military that assisted in saving lives.  This has been at great expense to me, and my family, but the new patent reforms that Mr. Obama is trying to push thru would all but rob the future of inventors like myself.  This will be a truly sad day.

Daisy

Nothing wrong with a country having a decent healthcare system accessible by all in need. It's hardly Stalinism!

Quote from: tekla on March 06, 2009, 07:40:08 AM
Well I sure don't see where fewer choices somehow more freedom.

It's the freedom FROM -- from deviants and deviance, from people and things and ideas that make us uncomfortable, from the fear that their children could CATCH our deviance.  It's freedom from uncleanliness.  It's freedom from not being able to hit back at what you're deathly afraid of.

...and the hits just keep on comin'!

=K

I dont judge others for there way of life and the way they live, but when you look back on history of other country's living by communisim and socialisim it does not work never has and never will, I do not my country the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA which so many have died for in past wars trying to defeat them who lived like that, it is not for the Gov, to riule us and control our lives. when the Gov wants to take from me and give to those that dont want to work, or pay a morgage that they should have never gotten in the first place, I dont make much as it is, but I worked for what i got.
I do not want Washington telling me who I should give some of my earnings to. nor should you.

We are not Russia,Old Rome,France, and many more, we are Americans and freedom and true Democracy are what we really are.
We need to understand that and not travel the ways of the others countrys,
that have been there.Everyone of those nations were destroyed from within because of there Gov. And now we are going to find out what it really is to be brought to our knees.
Im not Republican,Democrat, but the Liberals are tearing this Country apart with there socialistic thinking and so forth.
And we need to stand up and do whats right for each and everyone who want freedom of CHOICE.
I will keep my guns,money,dreams,hopes,and home you can kkep the CHANGE.



STOP STEALING OUR MONEY,
STOP LYING TO US
STOP THE WASTEFUL SPENDING
STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT HAVE.
STOP TELLING US THAT WE CANT PRAY,
STOP ALL THE BULL->-bleeped-<- THAT IS DESTROYING US.
JUST STOP IT.
WE DONT WORK FOR YOU WASHINGTON, YOU WORK FOR US.

Quote from: tekla on March 06, 2009, 08:05:46 AM
On the other hand, Iceland has one of the most heterogeneous populations in the world, and you are not dealing with the kinds of differences that have been present in the States since oh, 1620 or so.  I can take a short bus ride and on that bus hear at least 7 different languages spoken.  There is no national language, no national culture, none of that stuff, so those 'freedoms' like freedom of speech and freedom of worship are critical to protect minorities.  And hey, I kinda like the "God Hates ->-bleeped-<-s" folks, they sure make it a easier to disparage religion - like they are doing my work for me.  And, should such a law come about (and I doubt it) I'm sure that rather than protecting people from strange religious thoughts, the first victims of it would be those who oppose religion who would be stopped from airing their thoughts on the matter.

That example doesn't translate as easily when you start talking about the UK or South Africa or Australia - all melting pots themselves.

Freedom of speech is absolutely important, but in the same way that there are rules on this board about personal attacks and incitement and stuff, society needs them too. Freedom goes hand in hand with responsibility otherwise those freedoms eventually get lost, and freedom of speech does not extend to inciting violence against individuals, or hate speech or any of the rest of it. Saying something like:

"According to the teachings of my religion, homosexuality is wrong. I live by those precepts, so I cannot condone what you do, but I realise you have the same freedoms I do." is very different from "God hates f@gs and they should all die in hell!"

The one is freedom of speech, the other most assuredly not.

Quote from: samantha1976ts on March 06, 2009, 10:29:51 PM
I dont judge others for there way of life and the way they live, but when you look back on history of other country's living by communisim and socialisim it does not work never has and never will, I do not my country the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA which so many have died for in past wars trying to defeat them who lived like that, it is not for the Gov, to riule us and control our lives. when the Gov wants to take from me and give to those that dont want to work, or pay a morgage that they should have never gotten in the first place, I dont make much as it is, but I worked for what i got.
I do not want Washington telling me who I should give some of my earnings to. nor should you.

We are not Russia,Old Rome,France, and many more, we are Americans and freedom and true Democracy are what we really are.
We need to understand that and not travel the ways of the others countrys,
that have been there.Everyone of those nations were destroyed from within because of there Gov. And now we are going to find out what it really is to be brought to our knees.
Im not Republican,Democrat, but the Liberals are tearing this Country apart with there socialistic thinking and so forth.
And we need to stand up and do whats right for each and everyone who want freedom of CHOICE.
I will keep my guns,money,dreams,hopes,and home you can kkep the CHANGE.



STOP STEALING OUR MONEY,
STOP LYING TO US
STOP THE WASTEFUL SPENDING
STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DONT HAVE.
STOP TELLING US THAT WE CANT PRAY,
STOP ALL THE BULL->-bleeped-<- THAT IS DESTROYING US.
JUST STOP IT.
WE DONT WORK FOR YOU WASHINGTON, YOU WORK FOR US.

As far as I know nobody's stolen your money, wastefully spent resources or lied to you except the very bankers, brokers and industrialists the "free market" idolises. Them and the government that supported them.

And nobody has said you can't pray.

Socialism =/= Fascism.

Communism does not have a great record in the world, but that is BECAUSE it was combined with centralised power leading to Fascism. You can have Capitalism combined with Fascism equally well ... just look at China nowadays. Communist Russia and Nazi Germany were mortal enemies, but they were both Fascist regimes.

Rights and freedoms come with responsibilities attached to them if one wants those to be preserved, one of the main responsibilities being to do your best to guarantee those rights and freedoms for everybody else in your society. One has to, because the only reason society exists is for mutual advantage, and as soon as a section of the society no longer enjoys those advantages, they will destabilise that society. Making sure that everybody has the basics - healthcare, good education and the ability to not starve makes the world safer for everybody.

I'm not saying take from the rich and give it all to the poor, but I'm sure you'll concede that economic inequality gets passed down from parents to children because those kids don't get the same access to quality food, education and healthcare. In a truly free society kids should at least be given the same opportunities in life - they didn't create their situation.

Mina.

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=57002.msg357257#msg357257 date=1236406208
As far as I know nobody's stolen your money, wastefully spent resources or lied to you except the very bankers, brokers and industrialists the "free market" idolises. Them and the government that supported them.

Quoted for so much truth.

I'd love to know what's wrong with France, may Dad was born there and it's never seemed that much a terrifying totalitarian state to me.

Is it the headscarf (hijab) in school business? So what, Tunisia forbids headscarves in public/state buildings  and it's a majority Muslim country. I'm Muslim and I actually think it's an excellent law.

Communism isn't all that bad, my old city council was communist run for many, many years and imperfect though they were, they certainly ran it better than the Christian Democrats who preceded them.

Communism per se does not equate lack of democracy. You are confusing it with Stalinism sometimes known as State Capitalism.

No offence but your own country is far from perfect, the shame of segregation was in my lifetime not to mention the ovethrowing of democratically elected governments by covert means around the world, Cile/Gen. Pinochet and so on.

As for governments in general may I quote you an Italian saying - "Piove, governo ladro" ("It's raining, thief of a government")...

Imaz are you some sort of international spy, you have connections to everywhere lol 

I always thought the main difference between fascism and communism in real life was the attitude to economic policy (fascism = free/ish market, commy=state control) other than that both were socially opressive and Ultra-nationalistic. The remains of communism today are very different from stalinism/maoism. Marx created his ideas as an economic model not a political one for all thats worth now.

The headscarf thing in France is'nt discrimination coz you can't wear a cross either there is total seperation of church and state. Turkey is the same and is predominantly Muslim too.

Claire xoxo

The thing is,.. most versions of government have "similar" amounts of freedoms, the difference is in what freedoms you have.
The freedom to choose which brandname of jeans you buy, or the freedom to be promised government jeans even if you can't afford to "buy" a pair...
(Excessively simplified ofcourse.. and generalized.. but you know what I mean.)

Quote from: Claire on March 07, 2009, 07:46:50 AMI always thought the main difference between fascism and communism in real life was the attitude to economic policy (fascism = free/ish market, commy=state control) other than that both were socially opressive and Ultra-nationalistic.

Not quite. In its simplest form, communism simply advocates communal ownership of the means of production. The way Marx envisioned it it was stateless, with society functioning through mutual cooperation and by sharing produced goods equally.

Basically, communism, like every other system, can either tend towards fascism, with control in the hands of fewer and fewer people, or libertarian, with control more and more equally distributed. The extreme of fascism is a totalitarian state with a dictator in control. People have limited freedom but also limited responsibility. The extreme of libertarianism an anarchist state where everybody has maximum freedom and responsibility and everybody has equal control.

Incidentally, Marx saw Socialism, which advocates state control of the means of production, as a transitional state between capitalism and communism.

Mina.

Quote from: Claire on March 07, 2009, 07:46:50 AM
Imaz are you some sort of international spy, you have connections to everywhere lol 

I always thought the main difference between fascism and communism in real life was the attitude to economic policy (fascism = free/ish market, commy=state control) other than that both were socially opressive and Ultra-nationalistic. The remains of communism today are very different from stalinism/maoism. Marx created his ideas as an economic model not a political one for all thats worth now.

The headscarf thing in France is'nt discrimination coz you can't wear a cross either there is total seperation of church and state. Turkey is the same and is predominantly Muslim too.

Claire xoxo

Unfortunately, or is that fortunately, not!

Benito Mussolini himself defined Fascism as "State Corporatism". Communism is it's latter Soviet form is often defined by those of a Trotskyist leaning as "State Capitalism".

As for Nationalism I would not say that is inherent to Communism at all. Internationalism is at the heart of Communist ideology, Communism in one country is IMO destined to failure, Internationalism is the way forward whatever one's political ideology.

As regards religion, Trotsky wrote a very interesting pamphlet on it, it bears remembering that the world's biggest producer of Qur'ans in the '70's & '80's was the Soviet Union!

"Incidentally, Marx saw Socialism, which advocates state control of the means of production, as a transitional state between capitalism and communism."

Exactly

Separation of state and religion is absolutely necessary IMO, I'm a big fan of the Indonesian state's philosophical ideology - "Pancasila". Sadly it's noble ideals have yet to be realised.

Off to sleep for a while, I'm absolutely knackered...

Take care,

imaz x

You're both right I said in my post that marx created primarily an econoimic policy not a political one, he had no desire to be a dictator who controled everything he wanted that control in the hands of the greatest number of people possible but it is only in theory that it worked this way as the people in power IRL wanted more and more control and acted in very fascist way to get and keep it. Not all theries pan out and Comunism was just another failed model but just coz they failed doesn't mean they should never have tried in the first place.
That was the point I was trying to make, I hope I explained it better this time.

Claire xoxo

Hmmm...

A true comunistic state has never successfully been implemented because they turn into dictatorships within the first few years. Those nations that have tried it eliminated elections right off the bat.

A true capitalistic state has never succssfully been implemented because there are certain basic services and rights that must be protected.

To argue one against the other is fruitless because there has never been good data from successful implementation to draw from.

It all boils down to what we feel our inalianable rights actually are.  In Great Britain for example, they believe that access to healthcare is a right garanteed to all its citizens. Here in the US, we do not believe that is the case. We believe that you have to earn that privelage. It is noteworthy that once upon a time we did sign a treaty as a charter member of the UN that we support the "rights" of Americans to health care.  But hey... so what... we love to break treaties.

Free speech? I say let people say what they want. I'd rather have a group marching up and down the road with signs than have them penned up in a secret hall somewhere making clandestine plans to make everyone go to clown school.  I do not believe that we should silence those who wish to profess their religion.  I also do not believe that we should allow the religious right's blow convince us to not pass necessary legislation.

What I DO NOT WANT to see is facism.  And we've been heading down that road for the past decade. I don't want corporations running my country. It puts too much power in to the hands of the greedy.

Cindi

The closest true socialism I know is the US military. An E-1 gets paid as all other E-1s whether they work on nuclear reactors or clean tiolets. All get the same medical care and wear a uniform. Tekla, I told the mormon missionaries that there are Hondurans living in my neighborhood. They have not been back since. A mormon was killed in Honduras about 5 years ago. He tried to be a hero. If an armed man asks for your money just give up the money. The hero didn't know that basic rule.

moderation in all things - Taoist guide to living a good life(dunno wat its called )

That being said a Church steeple with a lightning rod on top betrays a huge lack of confidence

Claire xoxo

Quote from: Claire on March 09, 2009, 06:03:16 PM

....a Church steeple with a lightning rod on top betrays a huge lack of confidence

Not everyone attending need suffer for the priest's actions (architect's thought)   

You never know when god feels like reaching out and smiting something.  Odd how somehow the architects  made the churches into the biggest lighting collector in every area they were built in. 

And the lord sure do work in some mysterious ways dag'nabit.  Why when he reached out and smote old San Francisco back in Ought Six, every single church and synagogue was leveled, shock and then burned to the ground, smoldering heaps of ashes each and every one of them.  But, the Hotaling's whiskey warehouse and distillery was saved!  Praise god, for that is a mighty god to be sure.

as was written at the time in 1906:
'If, as they say, God spanked the town
For being over frisky,
Why did He burn the churches down
And save Hotaling's whiskey?'"

Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2009, 10:48:17 AM
You never know when god feels like reaching out and smiting something.  Odd how somehow the architects  made the churches into the biggest lighting collector in every area they were built in.

Well, they do that on purpose you know? Masons ... Freemasons ... Architects ... They're all in it together, evil vain creatures who mislead the faithful with pretty pictures and high intellectual talk, but what they really hope for is lightning on a Sunday morning, the heathens.

Mina.

Ahh a vast and all inclusive sweeping conspiracy to insure that everything happened just the way it did, and this is all the result of a grand plan.  I'm always buying into those.