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The End of Secrecy

Started by NicholeW., March 10, 2009, 10:23:27 AM

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NicholeW.

I found the most enlightening parts of this not to be about the presumed spying of the Israeli government on the USA and prolly :laugh: vice versa as well. Having worked for an intelligence agency for awhile I am aware that spying is a fairly universally applied doctrine: it's not just for enemies any more. If it ever was.

However, the really interesting parts of this have to do with the "sifting" of Verizon and ATT systems to winnow literally everything that comes through them. I have no doubt that to some degree the capacity is infinitely larger than it was when I worked.

O, they prolly "target" for particular phrases and identities, but the fact remains that pretty much everything you say on any phone and everything you send or browse on the internetz are "open source" to these agencies.

Nichole 

Breaking the Taboo on Israel's Spying Efforts on the United States
By Christopher Ketcham, AlterNet. Posted March 10, 2009.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/130891/breaking_the_taboo_on_israel%27s_spying_efforts_on_the_united_states/

Scratch a counterintelligence officer in the US government and they'll tell you that Israel is not a friend to the United States.

This is because Israel runs one of the most aggressive and damaging espionage networks targeting the US.  The fact of Israeli penetration into the country is not a subject oft-discussed in the media or in the circles of governance, due to the extreme sensitivity of the US-Israel relationship coupled with the burden of the Israel lobby, which punishes legislators who dare to criticize the Jewish state.  The void where the facts should sit is filled instead with the hallucinations of conspiracy theory – the kind in which, for example, agents of the Mossad, Israel's top intelligence agency, engineer the 9/11 attacks, while 4,000 Israelis in the Twin Towers somehow all get word to escape before the planes hit.  The effect, as disturbing as it is ironic, is that the less the truth is addressed, the more noxious the falsity that spreads.     


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tekla

it's not just for enemies any more. If it ever was.

Why people are shocked, shocked to find this out amazes me.  Hell our intelligence agencies - and we have a big dog pile of them - spy on each other.  Matter of fact it drives the NSA and CIA more crazy trying to guess what the other knows and isn't telling then any analysis the do of the enemy.

And, just because Israel is running a huge spy network in the US does not mean they are 'not our friend' (ahh, the world is just a big playground with kids ain't it).  Really, I'm sure most nations run their biggest spy networks here, (hell, ours does) there is more information here to get, so it only makes sense.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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imaz

Ehud Olmert bragged about ordering the US around like a lapdog.

Never, ever trust that racist, apartheid, murdering state.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 10:50:07 AM
Ehud Olmert bragged about ordering the US around like a lapdog.

Never, ever trust that racist, apartheid, murdering state.

Which one Imaz? So many choices!! :laugh:

Nichole
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tekla

He might have bragged about it, but like it or not, the US is not a little dog.  It's an 800 pound gorilla, and if you get to to sit in your lap, you ain't going to be moving anywhere fast.  And its going to get up an amble away and your going to be like some cartoon creature stuck into it.  As Obama is finding out, even being the President of the United States doesn't mean you can get that government doing anything.   So in that, as in other matters, Olmert was simply deluded - if not deranged.  But there is a lot of both going around over there, he is sadly just one more. 

Never, ever trust that racist, apartheid, murdering state
And by that, I assume you mean ALL of them, Israel, Palestine, Syria, the Saudis, Iraq, Iran, Great Brittan and the US.  OK, I'm down with that, I don't trust any of them for all the same reasons.

I mean I could get that down to "never trust a state, any state, anywhere, at any time in history."  And I'd be right.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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imaz

Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 11:01:06 AM
Which one Imaz? So many choices!! :laugh:

Nichole

Lol! I've been banned too many times from Guardian Talk to risk an answer! ;D
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mina.magpie

Quote from: tekla on March 10, 2009, 11:02:21 AM
I mean I could get that down to "never trust a state, any state, anywhere, at any time in history."  And I'd be right.

Ah. We'll make an anarchist outta you yet. ;)

Mina.


Post Merge: March 10, 2009, 02:13:24 PM

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 11:10:37 AM
Lol! I've been banned too many times from Guardian Talk to risk an answer! ;D

Hmmm. Not that many building big walls and talking of expelling entire ethnicities of people right at the moment. South Africa tried that. All it did for us was cause an awful lot of heartache. Mind you, Western colonizers seem to do it everywhere they go, so why should the country in question be any different? We seem incapable of learning from the tragedies of the past.  :-\

Mina.
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NicholeW.

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=57152.msg358014#msg358014 date=1236711934
Ah. We'll make an anarchist outta you yet. ;)

Mina.


Post Merge: March 10, 2009, 01:13:24 PM

Hmmm. Not that many building big walls and talking of expelling entire ethnicities of people right at the moment. South Africa tried that. All it did for us was cause an awful lot of heartache. Mind you, Western colonizers seem to do it everywhere they go, so why should the country in question be any different? We seem incapable of learning from the tragedies of the past.  :-\

Mina.


Really, so Georgia, Belarus, Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Kongo, and a few petinent others are not to be counted, Mina? It's not simply the two USAs that manage to take that style.
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mina.magpie

Oh, there's no shortage of insanity out there. Ethnic cleansing is horrifying and all too common, and despite a universally accepted declaration against genocide, as a world community we seem to just watch it happen ... over and over and over ... unless there are natural resources or strategic partnerships in the offing of course.

I don't want to get into a debate about which is worse, because both are equally terrible, but they are two very different things. What's happening in the countries you mention, what happened before - that is and was genocide.

Where ethnic cleansing is brutally ... direct though, apartheid has a way of sneaking through the back door as being "for their own good" or "self-defence" or whatever. And because of that it's easy to miss and even easier to ignore. Take the San Bushmen of the Kalahari, for example. Botswana to this day sticks them into "resettlements", appropriating their ancestral land and forcing them to give up their culture and language to "bring them into the 21st century". Once resettled though, they're left to slowly starve, die of disease or drink themselves to death. Most Botswanans sleep easy though 'cause after-all, "they're only helping them move with the times" ... whether they want to or not. And the rest of the world remains ignorant of it.

Apartheid brutalises people by not only attacking them physically but also undermining everything that makes them who they are, stripping them of their language, their cultural background, everything. When you reduce people to pure survival by "resettling" them in desolate bantustans or routinely bombing the crap outta them or sticking them in camps, you dehumanise them and nurture the very worst in them. When you keep treating them like caged animals, eventually that's all you get, wild and violent. My generation grew up knowing nothing but violence. White kids were sent off to the border to fight the "black menace" in the most brutal ways imaginable while black kids grew up with little besides police beatings and "pass laws" and slow starvation to look forward to. They were provided next to no education, restricted in movement and crammed into dense slums that were passed off as "independant states" to the outside world. Basically the apartheid government took the worst of what growing up in a gang had to offer and applied it to an entire nation. Those kids grew up to be amongst the most violent men in the world? Men in this country are 9 times more likely to commit rape and murder and assault than the rest of the world because it's all they grew up with.

Genocide is a visible evil, one we all recognise and hopefully have a visceral reaction to, but often apartheid isn't. It's often hidden and quiet and just "explained away", and some of the most terrible things it does to people only come bubbling up much later. They're related, sure, both born of xenophobia, and apartheid all too often eventually becomes genocide, but unless one recognises the differences between them, it's all too easy to miss them or misunderstand the situations that give rise to them.

Mina.

PS. ZA and the US aren't uniquely guilty of apartheid either. Australia did it to the Aboriginal people there, as did the British in India, and Palestine, and most of Africa ... just about everywhere they planted a flag. Not to mention the genocides the Belgians perpetrated in the Congo, or the Spanish and Portuguese in South America ... we have a LOT of collective blood on our hands.

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imaz

Excuse my ignorance Mina but what is PS?

Totally agree with everything you say, the West has blood on it's hands big time as regards colonialism, genocide, segregation, apartheid and so on...

It's ironic however that Dutch Apartheid in the then Dutch East Indies is almost totally ignored including their disgraceful use of Japanese troops against Indonesian Revolutionaries in late 1945. Indonesia suffers to this day from the corruption they embedded through their use of a sycophantic aristocracy and an Apartheid that envisioned three ethnic groups in descending order: White people, Foreign Aliens (Chinese and Arabs mainly), then "Indos" (mixed race Indonesians) and Pribumi (indigenous people). To this day the anti-Chinese sentiments are rooted in this history and sadly much prejudice and until very recently racist legislation continue to exist.

As for Palestine it is my sincere hope that a single democratic secular state may rise from the present disaster and that Muslims, Christians and Jews may collaborate together to make this happen and function. Too many lives have been lost and too much blood spilt for the present injustice to continue. While the present situation continues there will not be peace, the Palestinians will not submit even if they are killed by the thousands. Time and history is on their side. Just like Apartheid South Africa, Israel as it stands today has no future.

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NicholeW.

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imaz

Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 06:03:06 PM
Post-script. :laugh:

Shame on me! I read it together with ZA and US! :o
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NicholeW.

Quote from: imaz on March 10, 2009, 05:44:09 PM
... a single democratic secular state may rise from the present disaster and that Muslims, Christians and Jews may collaborate together to make this happen and function. ...

Christians, Muslims and Jews working together to make a functional state that looks viable?

I hate to pour cold water on a great dream, but when was the last time that happened? The Cordovan Caliphate prior to 1000 and the Toulousain in the late-12th and early 13th centuries?

Both states were overthrown by their more spectacularly warlike neighbors and annexed: one by Berber warlords and and Christian "liberators," the other by northern European fanatics and Papal indulgences.

It's a nice dream and I'd love to see it occur. It just seems unlikely as many would rather die than find the humanity in other humans, I imagine.

Nichole
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imaz

Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 06:35:48 PM
Christians, Muslims and Jews working together to make a functional state that looks viable?

I hate to pour cold water on a great dream, but when was the last time that happened? The Cordovan Caliphate prior to 1000 and the Toulousain in the late-12th and early 13th centuries?

Both states were overthrown by their more spectacularly warlike neighbors and annexed: one by Berber warlords and and Christian "liberators," the other by northern European fanatics and Papal indulgences.

It's a nice dream and I'd love to see it occur. It just seems unlikely as many would rather die than find the humanity in other humans, I imagine.

Nichole

Agreed, but what is the alternative?

Despite many deplorable incidents Indonesia still holds on to being a state founded on the principles of multi faith belief and multi ethnicity. It is of course the country with the largest Muslim population in the world. Lebanon despite it's problems is another.

Nothing is impossible.
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NicholeW.

Yeah, and historically speaking the great Caliphates have tended to be the places where that mixture and the ambience that allows cultures to form that sort of religious and social peace seem to me, in the western world, either Muslim or greatly under Muslim influence (theb Toulousain.)

Given our western prejudices about how viloent Muslims are, I find that ironic to say the least.

The Muslim tradition may not be the world's best in terms of violence and treatment of women, but then the other religions of the book don't do so well in those regards either. (and much of that is not necessarily Muslim but is a cultural tradition that became Islamicized as i understand it.)  At least Muslim history shows more promise than... British history and the history of British colonial descendants does. :)

Nichole
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imaz

Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 08:23:07 PM
Yeah, and historically speaking the great Caliphates have tended to be the places where that mixture and the ambience that allows cultures to form that sort of religious and social peace seem to me, in the western world, either Muslim or greatly under Muslim influence (theb Toulousain.)

Given our western prejudices about how viloent Muslims are, I find that ironic to say the least.

The Muslim tradition may not be the world's best in terms of violence and treatment of women, but then the other religions of the book don't do so well in those regards either. (and much of that is not necessarily Muslim but is a cultural tradition that became Islamicized as i understand it.)  At least Muslim history shows more promise than... British history and the history of British colonial descendants does. :)

Nichole

Personally I have great hope that we can all achieve a better future, insha'Allah.

As regards Islam, the ideas of Nurcholish Madjid have always appealed to me greatly. http://www.iias.nl/nl/34/IIAS_NL34_22.pdf  His work is virtually impossible to find in English however. The site of Jaringan Islam Liberal in English is good also - http://islamlib.com/en/

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NicholeW.

Thank you, Imaz. When I get back to my computer I'll bookmark the links. I very much appreciate those. Never too late to become educated, is it? :)

Nichole
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Alyssa M.

Quote from: Nichole on March 10, 2009, 11:01:06 AM
Which one Imaz? So many choices!! :laugh:

Nichole

I know an Anglican priest who has worked in a number of aread around the world, including some rather troubled areas. Among the worst, at least in popular perception, were ZA townships, Lesotho, and Zimbabwe (illegally, of course). He's also worked with indigenous groups in Utah and northern Alberta.

The one place he ever got death threats was Canada. Yes, Canada. From white people. For being perceived as "siding with" the First Nations.

--

As much as one might say that Israel has no future and Palestinians will never submit, the fact is, Israel is a fait accompli, and is, in fact, a multi-faith democracy. There are Muslim Israelis with full citizenship and voting rights -- a sizeable minority in fact. If Jordan and Egypt hadn't attacked in '67, this would still be the case.

It would be great to say that a two sate solution is possible, and the main problem with that is the settlement issue. the Gaza pullout was a test of the idea that pulling out of the settlements in the terretories would help. It failed: the rockets kept flying. Say what you will about disproportionate response, but repeated provocation eventually, well, provokes.

The only solution is a two-state solution; Israel won't accept anything else. If the Palestinians don't accept that, there will be continued bloodshed on all sides. That's not a moral judgement, just a fact.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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mina.magpie

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 10, 2009, 11:32:49 PMThe one place he ever got death threats was Canada. Yes, Canada. From white people. For being perceived as "siding with" the First Nations.

O_O

Now that was unexpected. And really sad.

QuoteIt would be great to say that a two sate solution is possible, and the main problem with that is the settlement issue. the Gaza pull-out was a test of the idea that pulling out of the settlements in the territories would help. It failed: the rockets kept flying. Say what you will about disproportionate response, but repeated provocation eventually, well, provokes.

Point. But Hammas arrested people for rocket attacks last week. Granted it doesn't prove they're not responsible for those in the past, but as long as the entire Palestinian people get punished for the actions of individuals, the situation will never be solved.

QuoteThe only solution is a two-state solution; Israel won't accept anything else. If the Palestinians don't accept that, there will be continued bloodshed on all sides. That's not a moral judgement, just a fact.

Yeah, though there are elements on either side that would not stand for that either. Honestly though, I don't see how a two state solution can work as the geography currently stands. The West-bank is a land-locked parcel of land with few resources, while the Gaza strip, Palestine's only port is only about 40 km long and about 10 km wide. I can't see how stable state can be created out of two largely useless bits of land that aren't even geographically connected.

It's a mess, how-ever one looks at it. The original UN partition plan was and is an unmitigated disaster. I mean, just looking at the map - how on earth did they think that this could work?! Although I suppose there was a lot more yellow back then than today.



Mina.
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Alyssa M.

Yes, you're right -- but I often see the Palestinian story presented here without the Israeli side. The only solution is that both sides see how the other side sees the situation.

When outside actors see only one side, they only impede progress. I fear that many Muslim states use the plight of the Palestinians as a distraction and excuse for their own internal persecution, just as the U.S. dismisses the Palestinian side as pure anti-Semitism (well, the Hebrew part of the Semitic group, anyway) and jealousy of the U.S. So the U.S., Jordan, Syria, etc. all need to recognize the legitimacy of both sides of the conflict.















(or maybe that's just me spouting my extremist moderate agenda again....)
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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