How do you feel about them? Do they help us become more accepted?

Honestly I feel they give us a bad image, and that they're the reason most people think of ugly men with too much makeup, or women with eyeliner mustaches, basically that it's just all one big joke, when they think of transgenders. I don't really understand why you would feel a need to present as the opposite gender unless you were TG/TS. Also, not really sure how it is "entertainment" persay. I can understand getting a sexual kick out of it, because I do when packing, but I don't get the concept of crossdressing because it's fun. How is a man who can pass for a woman more fascinating than a bio-woman? I understand that drag queens are generally funnier than your average woman but how does the presentation help? Just my opinion, and my questions I suppose.

I don't associate drag kings/queens with transsexuals. I'm sure that I'm in a minority when it comes to the general public's views but meh.

I think it's awesome. We all have varying degrees of masculinity and femininity and dressing in drag is a great way to express that. Then again maybe my views are skewed as I'm a bit of a drag queen myself.

Quote from: Osiris on March 15, 2009, 06:05:13 PM
I don't associate drag kings/queens with transsexuals. I'm sure that I'm in a minority when it comes to the general public's views but meh.

I think it's awesome. We all have varying degrees of masculinity and femininity and dressing in drag is a great way to express that. Then again maybe my views are skewed as I'm a bit of a drag queen myself.

I agree with the O man. No one has ever said even compared the too.

I am all for people doing what they want to do. So I have no problem with it! Most of the time they are usually funny and extremely friendly and sometimes they are just rude and arrogant! Like most people! 



Jay

If people get a bad impression of trans people because of drag kings & queens it's because of their ignorance and not the fault of the performers.  I will never blame the target of ignorance and hate, I'll only do that for those who refuse to learn and refuse to change their prejudice.

Drag kings & queens are performers.  Comparing them to trans people is like comparing Dolly Parton to your mom, if ya ask me.  If you run into someone who misjudges transsexual people based on their opinions of drag queens and kings, set them straight but please don't blame the victims.

Quote from: Jay on March 15, 2009, 06:08:16 PM
I agree with the O man.

The O man! I love it!

I agree with Asher in part.  I think that drag queens do make us and GGs look ridiculous at best and vulgar and sex mad at worst.  I am not sure what to think regarding drag kings. 
At another forum when I came out to the other members they were all completely convinced that I looked and dressed like this!

While I will admit it can be frustrating to have people not know the difference between a TS and a Drag artist it's not really anyone's fault, just a result of ignorance and/or lack of education. Most people I've come across know the difference though. I certainly don't think we can hold any sort of a grudge against drag artists for being who they are, that would be a wee bit hypocritical...

Most people can define the difference between a CD or TS and a Drag Queen.

I cross-dress both because it feels natural and it's fun. Once upon a time, it was for sexual kicks. But, I think I can say I've moved past that. It no longer feels like I'm breaking a taboo. It just feels right.

I've never really done drag, though I've heard the phrase "in-drag" to be synonymous as cross-dressed.

I've also heard that drag kings and queens basically mock the genders. Even if that's true, is mocking the binary really all that bad? I understand that as a genderflux person, how I seen things will differ, perhaps wildly, from how a TG or TS person or even a CIS person will see things.

I don't have a problem with drag, but that's just me.

In my own personal taxonomy, I class the people in the picture in this posting to be DRAG CLOWNS.

I personally have nothing against that sort of thing.  As others have said, most people can see that I'm nothing like them -- IF they even figure out I'm trans.

However, I'm concerned with the damage that can be caused by the likes of Peter LaBarbera, Rev. Shelton, 'Bam Bam' Barber, et. al. given the hammer that pictures like this become in their hands.

It's very like the unofficial trip arranged by the parents of the kindergartners to see their beloved teacher get married to her lesbian partner in front of news cameras -- the Yes on 8 folks are now certain that God exists, because it must have been Him that delivered that weapon to them.

And until society is educated sufficiently,  pictures of drag clowns will continue to be used to hurt the LGBT community -- AND foment divisions and exclusion within the community.

My apologies -- I'm getting down off my soapbox now...

Karen

Drag Kings and Queens are awesome.  They are super duper fabulous.  And there's a long history of drag performers and entertainment.  It's kind of it's own genre.  I definitely respect their hustle.  But I just see them as performers.  I don't see it as having much to do with CD or TS related issues.  Though I do accept them under the TG umbrella as a fun part of our culture.

I think they bring people a lot of joy.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on March 16, 2009, 01:46:33 AM
But I just see them as performers.

That's what they are and they're awesome at it!

QuoteI think they bring people a lot of joy.

mega WORD.

Quote from: Karen on March 16, 2009, 12:37:59 AM
. . . I'm concerned with the damage that can be caused by the likes of Peter LaBarbera, Rev. Shelton, 'Bam Bam' Barber, et. al. given the hammer that pictures like this become in their hands.

It's very like the unofficial trip arranged by the parents of the kindergartners to see their beloved teacher get married to her lesbian partner in front of news cameras -- the Yes on 8 folks are now certain that God exists, because it must have been Him that delivered that weapon to them.

And until society is educated sufficiently,  pictures of drag clowns will continue to be used to hurt the LGBT community -- AND foment divisions and exclusion within the community.

My apologies -- I'm getting down off my soapbox now...

Karen

It annoys me to no end when the Reich Wingnuts use people's ignorance to promote their hateful propaganda, as they do by posting drag kings & queens pictures and telling people they are representative of the trans community.  I don't think wishing away or condemning drag kings & queens would change any of that though.  Even if the DK's and DQ's disappeared tomorrow, there are always other pictures they would use.  Case in point: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/09a/nh_bills/hearing_0205.html

Since drag performers will not disappear, and shouldn't in my opinion, the only method to combat perniciously mendacious propaganda about trans people is education.  I would even propose counter-propaganda, as long as it's written without the obscene dishonesty that wingnuts so often employ. (This would preserve the higher moral ground for our community.)

Once again, I strongly urge people to go after the attackers of our rights, not the victimized tools they use to do it with.

I think it all depends on people's individual perceptions. Personally, I have no problem with someone cross-dressing if he/she is doing it as a performance art, or as a way of expressing him/herself... it's when they cross the line into sexual deviance that it gets to me. Honestly, I think in the public's view drag queens/kings are more detrimental to the entire LGBT image when they whore themselves out... who hasn't heard someone on TV or irl talking about "->-bleeped-<- hookers"?

It all goes back to perception, though. Of course there are far more gg prostitutes in the world than there are drag queen hookers... and yet, people look down more upon those who don't fit perfectly into the binary. As I said in my media thread, I think there are many people out there who simply won't accept members of a minority group unless each and every member adheres to that person's particular moral code... and that's just not possible.

I say, regardless of your orientation, gender expression, or preferences, be who you are, and don't hurt yourself or others. I'm certainly not bothered by people who dress as the opposite sex for kicks or entertainment... as long as they don't cross the line.

SD

I went to a drag show once, at a bar in Underground Atlanta. My gay friends "dragged" me along to see it, if I may use that expression. OK, are you done groaning? I'll continue.

I really don't get what's supposed to be so entertaining about it. I thought it was pretty boring and pointless. Maybe there's something that everyone else can see in it that I can't see. Or maybe the show I went to was just particularly inane. The MC was a former drag queen who had gotten too old to perform, and who gave very crude and vulgar spiels in a harsh whiskey-and-tobacco voice. Not funny. I'm afraid whatever amusement value it might have is lost on me.

When it comes to LGBT entertainment, I'm more of a crunchy-dykes-in-flannel-shirts-with-acoustic-guitars fan.

Drag is usually the last vestige of Vaudeville, Hypatia. It tends to be rollicking and rowdy and is there for entertainment. Or was the last time I was at a show, which I admit was long, very long, ago. Like 15 years ago long!!

I walked past a revue in P-town last summer when Catherine and I were there. Have to admit that it wasn't a draw for us, but simply because we weren't interested.

Does it "hurt the community" of transsexuals? Not as much, imo, as we manage to hurt that ourselves through unending quarrels and the disasterous fissures we often try to cement in place on a permanent footing.

I always thought it rather neat and pointed that Gothique did a few that she wrote about here, male impresonator stuff though which seemed to me to be absolutely a positive thing. But, that's just me.

Nichole

Really can't stand Drag Queens to be honest, some of them are pretty misogynist and even prejudiced against transexuals.

That said I do have a close friend who performs as a Drag King...

it's when they cross the line into sexual deviance

Is that line somewhere before perversion?  I know I moved way past perversion, into decadence and landed somewhere in the midst of depravity, but that's just me.  I'm just curious as to where you draw that line.

I've been to tons of drag shows, like any other form of entertainment, heavy metal bands or nude jello wrestling, or ballet, it can range anywhere from art to crap with lots of stops along the way.  It's always been more raunchy, like metal or jello wrestling, but it ain't pretending to be ballet either.

I mean, first of all drag shows tend to take place in a bar, which is going to be raunchier than a coffeehouse most of the time, but less raunchy then say, the Opera House when the Opera is performing (really, opera is the most violent, sexual, decedent cesspool in the arts.  It moves all the way to depraved most of the time.)  And in the whole men being women or woman being men there is a high sexual element.  So you would kinda expect that.

And crude and vulgar spiels does not even begin to come close to what ->-bleeped-<-shack in SF (I'm sure NYC had its own version) did, and that tended to be a new wave younger drag show.  It had, well, shall we say a very high shock level to be sure.

And the DQs did a lot, and continue to do a lot for the LGBT community, almost as much as the leather bunch does, so they deserve some props, if not a measure of respect for that.

And, its not like a new deal.  Yeesh.  Drag has been a part of theater for as long as we have known about theater.  And as a very old part of theater its sthick has been well and long defined, and raunchy is a key part of it, for sure.  Might as well complain that Greek tragedy is just too depressing most of the time.

I agree with Susan. Most people know the difference. They do not do any harm to the LGBT community. If anything some make fools of themselves. Of all the drag performances I've seen maybe I have been entertained three times. Maybe it's just me but watching someone lipsync is not entertainment. I've seen crossdressing comedians who are very funny.

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on March 17, 2009, 02:14:48 PM
I agree with Susan. Most people know the difference. They do not do any harm to the LGBT community. If anything some make fools of themselves. Of all the drag performances I've seen maybe I have been entertained three times. Maybe it's just me but watching someone lipsync is not entertainment. I've seen crossdressing comedians who are very funny.

O, if you've only seen those who lip-synch then you've missed a vital part of your education, Genevieve!!





Lemme move this next bit down so ya know I'm not directing it at you but at all of us.

One way or another I have a harder and harder time of buying into the "if they were only different, we wouldn't have such a bad name" stuff that I see all too often.

Where exactly would that end? Like are Catholics too embarrassing to be among, Baptists, Green party people? people under 30 or over 25? Children can really be quite embarrassing. Porn stars? Bondage adepts? Gay males: the really jock-y, cut kind, fishermen and women, skaters?

I mean seriously, can't we all just get a grip and understand that people tend to be different, one from another? It's part of our lives and experiences. We don't all live the same ones!!

So, I imagine no one ever is going to be 100% me except me.

I only have to learn to live in comfort with one person. Then what "you" or "they" do, think , believe, etc becomes much less worrisome to me if I know what I do, think, believe. This doesn't seem like rocket science. Although to hear the pretty much "middle-class, straight, cissexual, religious, suburban white folk" worries about it would make anyone believe it is.

I have plenty of capacity to make my own self look bad. I've never found I needed assistance with that.

Nichole