The Coming Evangelical Collapse
By Michael Spencer, Christian Science Monitor. Posted March 20, 2009.


http://www.alternet.org/story/132550/the_coming_evangelical_collapse/

We are on the verge -- within 10 years -- of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

Seems like a too hopeful prediction to me. Most people seem to enjoy easy comfort and the promise that "all your sins are forgiven" even those you never own to.

N~

From the very beginning of civilization there has been a gradual decline in hard line stances of all kinds.  When we go back in history we see one example after the next of intolerance towards bigotry, discrimination, hatred, fear mongering. 

People are basically good but many allow themselves to be led astray by slick talking power mongers.  Eventually, our inherent goodness causes us to realize these so-called leaders have only their best interest at heart.  As long as they have a following, they have money in their pockets.

The hard line stance against same sex marriage will soon be seen as the straw that broke the camel's back of extremist religious factions.  Too many same sex families are raising children and doing it well and this isn't going on unnoticed.  The "religious right" has hung their hat on family values.  Now they are faced with how to deal with same sex couples with kids.  They will put a spin on it but eventually it will fall apart and they will lose credibility.

Will it be ten years, twenty years?  Who knows?  But it will happen.

Julie

Can only speak about London (UK) but people seem to be getting much more religious to me. All these African and Caribbean churches and Catholic immigrants from Eastern Europe make it seem to me that Christianity, like Islam, is on the rise here.

As for the US they seem way too religious and puritanical to the eyes of us Europeans, it's not Christianity as we know it, but seems like a fundamentalism very akin to Islamic fundamentalism.

Just my opinion

If history has proven anything it is that everything changes. Sooner or later, all religions are changed (completely reconstructed) or abandoned, it's only a matter of time.

Quote from: imaz on March 20, 2009, 08:35:12 AM
Can only speak about London (UK) but people seem to be getting much more religious to me. All these African and Caribbean churches and Catholic immigrants from Eastern Europe make it seem to me that Christianity, like Islam, is on the rise here.

As for the US they seem way too religious and puritanical to the eyes of us Europeans, it's not Christianity as we know it, but seems like a fundamentalism very akin to Islamic fundamentalism.

Just my opinion

I recall reading back in the early seventies a book by a fellow named Edward (I think) Lukacs (add the Slavic diacritical marks) that opined that the USA was the only country in the western world that was likely to have a brand new puritan revolution. He thought Britain might go that way for awhile, but not for as long.

I recall thinking at the time, surrounded by leftists and radicals, that that would never happen. I saw my friends, he saw the country and was absolutely spot on.

The trouble with puritans is that eventually they begin to oppress everyone, even themselves. As Julie pointed out about families, it never dawns on them that they don't have an exclusive lock on the "good." Other people share that.

Eventually other folk find the repression to be unbearable and they invite their own Charles IIs back to be ruler. Even what was horrid 20 years or forty years before suddenly seems not only palatable, but to be desired.

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on March 20, 2009, 10:15:02 AM
I recall reading back in the early seventies a book by a fellow named Edward (I think) Lukacs (add the Slavic diacritical marks) that opined that the USA was the only country in the western world that was likely to have a brand new puritan revolution. He thought Britain might go that way for awhile, but not for as long.

I recall thinking at the time, surrounded by leftists and radicals, that that would never happen. I saw my friends, he saw the country and was absolutely spot on.

The trouble with puritans is that eventually they begin to oppress everyone, even themselves. As Julie pointed out about families, it never dawns on them that they don't have an exclusive lock on the "good." Other people share that.

Eventually other folk find the repression to be unbearable and they invite their own Charles IIs back to be ruler. Even what was horrid 20 years or forty years before suddenly seems not only palatable, but to be desired.

Nichole

Agree with what you say entirely, back in the seventies such a tendency was incomprehensible to most of us who were young in those days. The tendency towards puritanism world wide is something I loathe. Be it my Christian Fundamentalist homophobic neighbours or be it the ever increasing fundamentalism visible in Indonesia or some Arab countries.

The number of women wearing the Hijab in Jakarta and Cairo has increased massively as has the emergence of crazies like the FPI/Front Pembela Islam in Indonesia and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Even though the government professes to condemn such organisations it tends to bring in oppressive legislation to calm unrest. The anti-pornography legislation and intoduction of partial Sharia Law to Aceh Province being two examples.

Your agreement, truly, is nice to have, Imaz. Thank you.

However, I think what we cannot (well, should not) underestimate are the numbers of human-kind who desire nothing more than a very simple life. One full of distinct good and evils. No fine lines or shadows that change the tones and nuances of color and sound. No need to make decisions for one's self. Rather to have a sure and firm guide who will demand of them that they believe, think, do this, this and that without worry or labor.

No uncertainty and no nuance, just flat out Allah or Jehovah stating loudly and with authority: "This is the right thing."

My Mother has a much softer voice. Sometimes I must sit silent and hear, instead of demands, a series of possibilities. She grants me knowledge and agility so I can learn to move and think and act gracefully under my own guidance. I find that She seems pleased to have daughters and sons who are able to flourish, as Her creation seems to flourish, even in the most horrendous and tumultuous events and passes.

Of course, my Lady doesn't seem loud and demanding enough for some. They find Her voice and Her movements too subtle, too unobtrusive, to detect. It's fine, it gives me opportunities to increase my own grace and knowledge, my ability to hear and see the various tones in the wind and the light, to feel the subtle changes of texture that abound ... everywhere.

Nichole

I was reading the article on the rising influence of Atheism (also at Alternet) and particularly "activist" atheism, just before this one, and the way the author characterises America as undergoing a sort of polarisation between secularism and fundamentalism, with the center falling out entirely, makes alot of sense. I think though that it's a global phenomenon, with people turning either to secular humanism/personal belief systems or to fundamentalist beliefs of whatever shade. I don't know that Evangelism is collapsing as much as just ... consolidating. The same Religious Identification Survey that notes an increase in atheist belief points out that, while Christianity is losing ground, Evangelism isn't.

So yeah, while I think more and more people are putting their "faith" in more humanist, secular approaches to society, whatever their personal beliefs, by the same token more and more people are turning to hard-line fundamentalism all over the world. Which I suppose is quite natural considering how uncertain our world has become and how powerless we generally are as individuals - in the face of that people need certainties of whatever flavour.

So yeah, I honestly don't see Evangelism dying out. On the contrary, I think it's gaining ground everywhere, though perhaps it IS become less and less "Christianity" as such. As Miniar points out, it's changing - seemingly into wholly personality-based charismatic cults devoid even of real biblical teaching, whatever that is, but for somebody who NEEDS unassailable certainty, it's as easy to follow the words of a preacher in Armani as it is the words of long-dead holy-men.

Mina.

Quote from: Nichole on March 20, 2009, 01:46:21 PM
Your agreement, truly, is nice to have, Imaz. Thank you.

However, I think what we cannot (well, should not) underestimate are the numbers of human-kind who desire nothing more than a very simple life. One full of distinct good and evils. No fine lines or shadows that change the tones and nuances of color and sound. No need to make decisions for one's self. Rather to have a sure and firm guide who will demand of them that they believe, think, do this, this and that without worry or labor.

No uncertainty and no nuance, just flat out Allah or Jehovah stating loudly and with authority: "This is the right thing."

My Mother has a much softer voice. Sometimes I must sit silent and hear, instead of demands, a series of possibilities. She grants me knowledge and agility so I can learn to move and think and act gracefully under my own guidance. I find that She seems pleased to have daughters and sons who are able to flourish, as Her creation seems to flourish, even in the most horrendous and tumultuous events and passes.

Of course, my Lady doesn't seem loud and demanding enough for some. They find Her voice and Her movements too subtle, too unobtrusive, to detect. It's fine, it gives me opportunities to increase my own grace and knowledge, my ability to hear and see the various tones in the wind and the light, to feel the subtle changes of texture that abound ... everywhere.

Nichole

È un piacere carissima

Allah/Jehova is not black and white, male or female. In my personal opinion Allah is also the lady you talk about, please don't think that everything is clear and nuance free. Even if we take the Qur'an there still remains what we understand by it. To all of us it can be understood in different ways and then of course there is al-Ghaib. That is what we cannot see nor understand, what creates our world full of mysteries, what gives us the space to think freely and if we so wish pray.

There is no compulsion in religion, there is no certain right or wrong. Is it better as a Muslima to pray with one's head uncovered or not to pray at all, is it better to pray still stoned from the night before or not pray at all? Most Muslims would say it is better not to pray, I beg to disagree. It is always best to do the action which is more honest and direct, only Allah/Jehova can judge us.

Yikes, I'm sorry, if you though I was trying to apply that everything easily parsed to ALL of anyone! Of course not, that would sorta belie anything else I had said, no? Simply meant to say that I doubt the fundies of any sort, even liberal fundies, will disappear because many folks just seem to like to be dictated to better than to having to hear nuance and quiet.

N~

I have a friend who is a hardcore catholic... and he said that Universities and institutions of learning are destroying religion in the world... "Most people loose faith once they start to understand things... so few of us can have blind faith and knowledge at the same time"  I think he may be right... Though allot of people identify as part of a religion, very few actually actively practice and believe in them as compaired to years past.  Maybe a bad thing, maybe a good... but it sure will be different.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 20, 2009, 08:34:21 AM
From the very beginning of civilization there has been a gradual decline in hard line stances of all kinds.  When we go back in history we see one example after the next of intolerance towards bigotry, discrimination, hatred, fear mongering. 

I cannot disagree more. History shows cyclic patterns of tolerance and intolerance. There is no such thing as progress in the permanent sense of the word. There is only temporary relief.

Those same evangelical Christians will tell you that this is a sign of the coming of the end. Revelation predicts a time of religious apostasy prior to the Tribulation... and many Christians, my parents included, see this happening right now and believe the apocalypse is close at hand. Me... I'm a Christian, but of a vastly different persuasion. Maybe they're right, maybe not. Regardless, I think they're happy about it.

SD

many Christians, my parents included, see this happening right now and believe the apocalypse is close at hand

Hell's Bells, they believed that on DAY ONE, thinking that the writers of those abysmal documents were speaking for the current time (Hint: they were).  They just keep on updating it when NONE OF IT HAS TURNED OUT TO BE REAL YET