I have noticed that society lives by double standards. They claim that being gay or transgender is not natural and claim that God did not make you gay or transgender and it is against Gods will. Well they claim that it is not natural or God didnt make you that way and it is a sin, there are those who are born with brown hair and dye it blonde, God did not make them blonde but to them that is alright. There are those who cheat on their wives or husbands but then again to them that is all right and is not a sin and the church lashes at the gay and transgender comminuty, dont they teach that you should not judge others less you judge yourself? Dont they teach love the sinner and not the sin? they are taught to forgive. I dont believe it is a sin being gay or transgender, I didnt chose to be transgender and I spent a life time trying to convince my self I wasnt. I will post a second part soon. I plan on discussing the second part with my therapist and I am interesed on her reply.

I don't really pay attention to simple minded fools who buy into what a book tells them.  They may as well be following a Charles Dickens book or Stephen King for that matter.  I do believe in a higher being (or beings), but I really don't think they care what sex the person you are sleeping with is nor do I think they care about altering ones body to make oneself feel complete.  After all, body modification as a means of becoming complete has been an ongoing thing in human cultures ever since the dawn of man.

The funny thing about the Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin comes from the same passage that tells that children who misbehave should be stoned to death and it also talks extensively about how divorce is an abomination to god.  I believe this is found in Laviticus but I'm not sure since I have not picked up a bible in years except to throw it in the trash or at the people trying to wield it as a weapon.

The way I see it, Christianity has two options.  One is to drop their dated ideas and beliefs against homosexuality and transgendered, or the religion will eventually be abolished as people move to something that is accepting of all walks of life.

Quote from: Ashley315 on April 02, 2009, 11:18:42 AM
I don't really pay attention to simple minded fools who buy into what a book tells them.  They may as well be following a Charles Dickens book or Stephen King for that matter.  I do believe in a higher being (or beings), but I really don't think they care what sex the person you are sleeping with is nor do I think they care about altering ones body to make oneself feel complete.  After all, body modification as a means of becoming complete has been an ongoing thing in human cultures ever since the dawn of man.

The funny thing about the Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin comes from the same passage that tells that children who misbehave should be stoned to death and it also talks extensively about how divorce is an abomination to god.  I believe this is found in Laviticus but I'm not sure since I have not picked up a bible in years except to throw it in the trash or at the people trying to wield it as a weapon.

The way I see it, Christianity has two options.  One is to drop their dated ideas and beliefs against homosexuality and transgendered, or the religion will eventually be abolished as people move to something that is accepting of all walks of life.

word!

will eventually

They've been the biggest religion in the west for 2,000 years now.  Don't hold your breath.

It's probably okay to find good ideas or philosohies in some books, but people should always think for themselves and not just blindly accept what some book says, especially when you have some pea-brained moron trying to shove their particular interpretation of it down your throat. It is never a "sin" to be yourself, no matter what the Christians, Muslims, Jews, or anyone else says. In fact, the concept of "sin" altogether is outdated and built on faulty assumptions to begin with, implying the need to constantly seek "forgiveness" for every imagined transgression.

Ashley, love your Lilith signature

I do not think it is as simple as saying right or wrong.

In a perfect world, there would be no sin, crime, disease, death, hatred, hunger, thirst, or personal or societal disorders.  Do we live in a world like that?  Of course not.  However you interpret the "fall" the meaning is that we do not live in a perfect world at this point in history.  And so, what do we do with our fallenness?  I do not think there is one clear biblical answer to that question.

I do believe that God does not want me to live with a body that does not match who I am, any more than I believe than God wanted a boy in a nearby apartment complex to die in a fire, or my best friend to die of leukemia.  The Christian message is clear that there will come a day when that will be solved.  In that day, among other things, there will be no more distinction between male and female (see Galatians 3:28).  I take that to mean that GID will disappear. 

So what do we do in the meantime?  One answer would be to just call anything except health and wealth sinful.  I thoroughly reject this.  Unfortunately, some out there do not.  The other answer, and I believe the appropriate one for Christians, is that in this world, we begin to be affected by the vision of the Kingdom.  While we await its final fulfillment, we begin to change our world to align it with this vision.  We do not just wait around for "pie in the sky."  Rather, there is no reason to wait to start living out the vision of justice and acceptance.  In fact, I believe that we will be judged on precisely how well we did this, rather than how "religious" we were.

I realize that I have condensed a very long discussion into a few paragraphs.  Forgive me.  However, if one can grasp these seemingly (to me) obvious principles, the answer to your question is also painfully obvious.

Kristi

too true, Kristi. Especially about the calling anything but health and wealth sinful. Used to be the belief that sick people were evil, hence their sickness.
The demonization of the GID afflicted is just a modern version of that.

I like to think that I can understand both sides of an arguement, even those I do not agree with. While I do not care for religion at all and I agree with your sentiment shychristine, I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here.

If someone is taught religion their entire lives and told their only hope of salvation is to follow it, how else are they supposed to act? Hair color cannot be used as a comparison as it is just a simple vanity issue that is no different than wearing different color clothes. As far as cheating, they know it's wrong. Just about everyone does. They try to hide it like anyone else. Nobody follows their own moral code to the letter, whether it is built on religion or not. We are all hypocrites about one thing or another. One thing people do to make themselves feel better is find someone else who is doing something they feel is worse. Condemn that person and our own mistakes are slightly less offensive. While this isn't right, everyone does it. Not all religious people will cheat. What about the ones who generally lead "decent" lives but yet still condemn transgenders? What other tool must be created to vilify them so that their viewpoint can be rendered wrong?

Education is the only means of changing a societies viewpoint and even that will typically only work on the younger population. It is unreasonable to expect an older adult who is set in their beliefs to suddenly abandon everything they have known to follow someone else's viewpoint. Society depresses me. Be it business, religion, or relationships, conflicting sides will always point fingers at the other trying to place the blame. Both sides are adamant about being right. Neither side will ever do what it takes to truely understand the other's viewpoint and try to come to a compromise. But it is not about getting along. The other side is the real problem. They are the ones who will never listen. They are the ones who are being unreasonable.

If someone insults me. Okay. If someone hates my very existance. Okay. Am I a vile creature that is going to burn for all eternity? Okay. I smile, nod, and walk away. They can believe as they choose. The opinion of someone I don't like means nothing to me. Their words might as well be a gentle summer's breeze.

My problem with most Christians is how they use phrases from the bible to best suit them and omit those phrases that are totally against the way they live their own lives.

Divorce is the biggest one.  It is clearly listed in the bible as a sin in gods eyes, yet divorce today is pretty much the norm for couples.  It is sad really how, since a majority of Christians get divorced then they think god has somehow forgotten about that sin.  But alas, this is the human way.

Since I'm in the mood to do a "proper" reply...

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
I have noticed that society lives by double standards.

"Society" is a blanket word and doesn't really belong in this post unless accompanied with other words. That is to say, "society" isn't the same across the globe.
Icelandic society differs from American, and "Christian-American" society differs from any other religious-American society.
The lack of context makes you post a little confusing, but I'll roll with it.

Quote from: shychristineThey claim that being gay or transgender is not natural and claim that God did not make you gay or transgender and it is against Gods will. Well they claim that it is not natural or God didnt make you that way and it is a sin,

Again, "They"? Who are "They" exactly?
Yes there are those that claim that homosexuality is not natural, they have however been proven wrong time and time again as homosexual and bisexual behavior is easily found in nature and thus natural.
Their argument that God didn't make you that way (Which god by the way? I assume you mean yhvh, the judeo-christian deity.) is rather flawed as well. It makes little sense, if yhvh is "perfect" and infallible, for people to exist as homosexual or trans anything against his will. If he personally decides how each and every human being is natured from birth then he could very well choose not to make any people with any homosexual tendencies what so ever and no people with gender disphoria. So if there is a perfect, loving, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent god, then the homosexuals and transsexuals of the world are purposefully created as such and people should rather put faith in yhvh's ineffable plan than nitpick as to whether or not his creation is perfect enough by accusing other people of not being created "right".
If we exist, and yhvh exists, then we're supposed to be made this way. Simple as that.

Quote from: shychristinethere are those who are born with brown hair and dye it blonde, God did not make them blonde but to them that is alright.

Actually, there are fundamentalistic groups out there that openly speak out against the dying and cutting of hair.

Quote from: shychristineThere are those who cheat on their wives or husbands but then again to them that is all right and is not a sin

Adultery is one of the main sins of any christian community/society. It's a part of the cardinal rules and touches on the seven deadly sins (lust) as well. I'd avoid making this point in the future as it is obviously false.

Quote from: shychristineand the church lashes at the gay and transgender comminuty,

Not every church. There are churches that openly accept all people.

Quote from: shychristinedont they teach that you should not judge others less you judge yourself?

Yes. But human beings are flawed and easily manipulated.

Quote from: shychristineDont they teach love the sinner and not the sin?

Yes. But human beings are flawed and easily manipulated.

Quote from: shychristinethey are taught to forgive.

Yes. But human beings are flawed and easily manipulated.

Quote from: shychristineI dont believe it is a sin being gay or transgender, I didnt chose to be transgender and I spent a life time trying to convince my self I wasnt.

You and many other members of Society.

Quote from: shychristineI will post a second part soon. I plan on discussing the second part with my therapist and I am interesed on her reply.

I can hardly wait. ^^

(Disclaimer: I am a Christian. I have never been a fan of organized religion and don't ascribe to any particular dogma. My individual beliefs are based on my own studies and understanding of the Bible.)

With all the Christians I've known throughout my life, especially in college, I never actually heard any of them express the idea that being transgender was a sin. Maybe it's simply because the topic never came up. I would have to say that before Hypatia came out to me, I had never given it much thought one way or the other. It wasn't anything I understood well until it became part of my life because of her.

I was shocked to find the reactions among Christians after that. (These were not my friends from college.) The whole "God doesn't make mistakes" or "it's a sin" ideas had never entered my mind before, and I couldn't believe anyone thought that. I hope no one will mind this comparison, but it's one I've used to try to show these people how stupid they are. (If anyone has a better example, please let me know. I'm just trying to phrase it in a way others can relate to.)

I try to explain that it's no different than being deaf or having any other birth condition that makes someone "different." It doesn't even mean that someone with GID or deafness or anything else sees themselves as having a "birth defect." It's just something that's part of them that they may or may not consider to be a problem. I don't think even the most conservative fundamentalist Christian would dare to call deafness or anything else a sin. I try to tell them that being transgender is no different. It has gotten my point across to them, at least a little.

I hope that makes sense and doesn't offend anyone. Like I said, if someone has a better way for me to phrase this, please tell me. I've had to do a lot of defending of transgender issues, and I want to make sure I'm doing it in the best way.

Many (most?) here see GID as a birth defect.

God made us, defects and all. He knew us before we were born so says the bible.

So is he going to hold us accountable for a birth defect? How about the people with autism? Do they get held accountable too? Mental retardation - held accountable?

Seems to me that God made us the way he wanted us to be, and will not hold us accountable for birth defects. At least that is my opinion.

Quote from: riven_one on April 02, 2009, 02:30:22 PM
Many (most?) here see GID as a birth defect.

God made us, defects and all. He knew us before we were born so says the bible.

So is he going to hold us accountable for a birth defect? How about the people with autism? Do they get held accountable too? Mental retardation - held accountable?

Seems to me that God made us the way he wanted us to be, and will not hold us accountable for birth defects. At least that is my opinion.

Works for me, and if he does hold me accountable and punishes me by sending me to hell for it... so be it.  At least the devil accepts everyone regardless.   

Quote from: riven_one on April 02, 2009, 02:30:22 PMSo is he going to hold us accountable for a birth defect? How about the people with autism? Do they get held accountable too? Mental retardation - held accountable?

Thank you. I'm glad I'm not too far off track. And those are much better examples of birth defects than I've been using.

Their numbers are dropping Tekla, at least in the U.S. at alarming rates. Well, alarming to them.


Religion preaches tolerance, while teaching intolerance, it is as simple as that.
Things are okay, as long as it falls into their realm of what they consider normal, anything out of that, is wrong.

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
They claim ....God didnt make you that way.

My ex always told me that God doesn't make mistakes.  And she is right.  Unlike what the Christian Reich says God did make me this way for a reason.  I live my life as God wants me to, as a woman.

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
There are those who cheat on their wives or husbands but then again to them that is all right and is not a sin.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
Don't they teach that you should not judge others less you judge yourself?

Mathew 7:1-5
1     Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2     For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3     And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4     Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5     Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
Don't they teach love the sinner and not the sin? 

They are even thought it is not directly for their precious book.

Quote from: shychristine on April 02, 2009, 07:20:03 AM
they are taught to forgive.

Matthew 18:21-22
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Luke 6:37
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 6:14-16
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Isn't amazing that they don't even follow the words of they little book.  And this is from a witch.  But I learned these words, and thus studied the Bible.

Quote from:   Sun Tzu, The Art of War故曰：知彼知己，百戰不殆；不知彼而知己，一勝一負；不知彼，不知己，每戰必殆。(故曰：知彼知己，百战不殆；不知彼而知己，一胜一负；不知彼，不知己，每战必殆。)
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will fight without danger in battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

Janet

As far as Leviticus goes, it's also an abomination to eat a rabbit or to mix fabrics or to have different crops planted in the same field. 

It's important to note that abomination in this context means a ritual wrong (it's better explained in "For the Bible Tells Me So" a really nice documentary).  Also, anything Paul said about homosexuality wasn't what we think of homosexuality today.  Again, see that documentary.  Actually, there's a guy from the Disciples of Christ church (ironically, the church I grew up in) who talks about the difference between what the Bible "says" and what the Bible "reads".  It's all about context and the people who use the Bible to justify bigotry and violence don't know how to interpret what they are reading OR they deliberately mislead people (which to me would be blasphemy, but anyway).

I'm not religious anymore, but interpretation and context are important no matter what you're reading.  (thankfully, I was never subjected to hellfire and brimstone...we only did the Gospels...*sigh of relief*...my mom went to church with my dad once and the preacher said "->-bleeped-<-gots" and she never went back...he was 'foot washin' Baptist, whatever that means)

Quote from: Jaimey on April 02, 2009, 03:46:18 PM
As far as Leviticus goes, it's also an abomination to eat a rabbit or to mix fabrics or to have different crops planted in the same field. 

It's important to note that abomination in this context means a ritual wrong (it's better explained in "For the Bible Tells Us So" a really nice documentary).  Also, anything Paul said about homosexuality wasn't what we think of homosexuality today.  Again, see that documentary.  Actually, there's a guy from the Disciples of Christ church (ironically, the church I grew up in) who talks about the difference between what the Bible "says" and what the Bible "reads".  It's all about context and the people who use the Bible to justify bigotry and violence don't know how to interpret what they are reading OR they deliberately mislead people (which to me would be blasphemy, but anyway).

I'm not religious anymore, but interpretation and context are important no matter what you're reading.  (thankfully, I was never subjected to hellfire and brimstone...we only did the Gospels...*sigh of relief*...my mom went to church with my dad once and the preacher said "->-bleeped-<-gots" and she never went back...he was 'foot washin' Baptist, whatever that means)

You are absolutely correct in this, but unfortunately the general populace of Christians do not see it that way.

I'm a practicing Quaker and am extremely thankful for that. There is a great deal of acceptance all through my meeting and I know that there will be acceptance for me when I do reach a point where I can come out to that community. However I do have some delightfully conservative bible-thumping Catholic grandparents on one side of my family. I'm hoping that I can explain it well to them and find acceptance but I am very skeptic. I'm also considering playing the waiting game and count down their biological clock(as horrible as that is). I am the first grandchild they had and they seem to place a lot of love in me, which I'm sure would be rescinded, and in turn it'd devastate them if I was to come out.
However, although FGC Quakerism isn't as Christo-centric as FUM Quakerism, I still know my way around the Bible. I think that an important passage to consider with regards to Transsexuality is:

Genesis 2:21-23

QuoteSo the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The man said,
       "This is now bone of my bones
       and flesh of my flesh;
       she shall be called 'woman,'
       for she was taken out of man."

This is the "justification"(although I shouldn't have to justify myself) that if I ever have to explain this to my Grandparents. I'm just a woman emerging into the "new world". My transition is God giving me the opportunity to come into the world as a whole person, like Eve.

Its all what you make out of it I guess,
Sarrah

The best thing about it is.. I don't have to justify myself to anyone.  I don't care if people don't like me or don't accept me.  I don't need anyone's approval.  I'm going to do whatever makes me happy.