Somewhere in the mountains of information I've read since I met my friend, I saw something about the emotional effects of taking hormones. Taking the wrong hormones - oestrogen for FTMs, testosterone for MTFs - caused increased anxiety and unhappiness, whereas taking the right hormones resulted in calmness and a much better emotional state. (I think this was taking them as a one-off rather than as longterm treatment.)

My friend is nowhere near being ready to even contemplate taking T but I was wondering if there was any plant-based hormone supplement which might relax him and reduce his terrible anxiety and unhappiness. It would have to be something which could be easily obtained from, say, a health food shop rather than being prescribed. I think I read that American ginseng was a good source of phyto-testosterone but I've also heard that it contains phyto-oestrogen as well which would seem to defeat the purpose.

Any advice would be gratefully received.

Well, let's start off with what is causing his anxiety and depression. Understanding that can help determine what the best course of action is. Taking herbs and hoping it fixes something is like taking Prozak or something and hoping the depression will go away: you're not addressing the underlying problem. So  you may want to see if that could help. That said, St. John's Wort is probably the  most well known natural supplement to address anxiety and depression (read about other options including St. John's Wort here: http://www.iampanicked.com/anxiety-articles/herbs-for-anxiety.htm)

If you're looking to have this start him on the path of transitioning without T take a look at this thread (long but worth it): http://www.butch-femme.com/portal/forums/showthread.php?t=22872 It does talk about the use of herbs to transition. I would caution that there still should be some involvement of a doctor or endocrinologist to ensure that his liver isn't shot in the process (VERY IMPORTANT).



Lastly: I'm not a psychologist or therapist or whatever. I only mention what my personal experience and understanding is (which could very well be marred and mistaken).

HTH

Hi, Linus, and thank you.  I guess I am wondering what he can do to settle down enough to think clearly. At present he is so wrapped in worry and self-doubt that he can't see the wood for the trees. I'll get stuck into those links you gave for starters.

My therapist actually somewhat condones herbal hormones. They have been shown to help menopausal women so why not.

They do have an effect, while minimal, it may be enough to ease some of the stress. Just beware any marketed to T.S., they can be overpriced and have such elevated levels that they are dangerous.  Keep in mind there is some element of risk to it no matter what you do though.

Getting this person to a therapist and get them started the right way will help a lot more, especially long term.

Quote from: Linus on April 11, 2009, 06:33:02 AM
Well, let's start off with what is causing his anxiety and depression.

Agreed.  That should be the first step.  He probably does need to see a therapist.  It's generally a better idea to speak to a professional than to go about everything on your own. 

Bryce2009, unfortunately I don't but I've gotta believe that there is some formula similar to Captain Longjacks for MTF.

Anyone that tells you that herbs contain hormones is full of it. What particular herbs do when used correctly is make use of the hormones your body already produces. Some limit testosterone. Others enhance estrogen. Most people use them for breast growth. Although other feminization has been noted by some. Fuller hair, fem. body shaping.
Inexperienced people should not use herbs in my opinion. Many end up spending too much and over doing it. Like anything, it needs to be studied and researched.
I just happen to have gardened for several years and have an idea how to use them. But someone who just got turned on to herbs yesterday is probably better off just going to a doctor

Quote from: Jaimey on April 12, 2009, 12:53:15 AM
Agreed.  That should be the first step.  He probably does need to see a therapist.  It's generally a better idea to speak to a professional than to go about everything on your own. 

In the case of my friend I was more concerned with the calming effects of taking testosterone, rather than the virilising effects. At present he would not consider seeing a therapist since he's so tangled up in his own issues. Catch-22.

Re. the effects of herbal hormones, as a post-menopausal woman I can say plainly that ingesting soy products really helped me cope, but without the strong effects of HRT. It was this slight improvement in quality of life that I was hoping to explore for my friend, just a little something to take the edge off his worst feelings so that he could start thinking more realistically.

But in general this is a fascinating topic and one which would seem to have legs so I shall continue to read all the replies with interest and with thanks. 

Because the herbs are unregulated for the most part, when people find out that certain herbs will do certain things they tend to go "Hog Wild" with it and spend money needlessly and OD themselves. Overdoing it wont make you bustier. Learning what works well for your body will.
It takes time for your body to start reacting to the herbs. It is best to start out with small doses and build from there until you find the amount that works well for you.
I began to notice results in the first month, so I increased my dosage. By the third month I realized that I needed to back it off a bit.
Also using the correct massage technique is very important because it wont work without it. Basically you have to let your hormones know what you want to do.
There are also certain creams that are used to aid the enhancement.
Also diet and habits play a large role 

I've been happy with my results thus far... BTW, I'm 47

The herbs don't contain the hormones. They cause your body to increase or decrease the production of the hormones it already produces

I use a cloth measuring tape also and use the guidelines for bra sizing. But I'm usually seated on the potty. Which reminds me, I need to order a couple of new bras 

Valerian root helps me a lot with anxiety, especially social anxiety. its mild and can be used as a sleep aid as well. might give it a try

Don't know if this helps, but my understanding is that phyto-testosterones for FtMs are basically a crock.  If one has factory-equipped testes, one can take substances that will encourage them to make more T or else improve the body's ability to make use of whatever male hormones are already sloshing around.  You can get T that is derived from plant sources, but it will have been heavily chemically processed to get from plant extract to testosterone.  But there's basically nothing in the world of flora that will do what T does.  (I am not a herbalist, just someone who's gone through a lot of literature on herbalism whimpering "but there must be something..!")

Phyto-oestragens are a different matter.  They certainly exist, and there's good anecdotal support for them being useful for some people.

You friend could talk to a doctor about a low does of anti-anxiety medicine, or to a herbalist about using valerian or some other anti-anxiety herb.  T does improve mood in a lot of people, but there's plenty of other things to try first.

I'm a big advocate of therapy, but if your buddy isn't into that, an exercise regimen might help, if he's not on one already. Adrenaline can raise testosterone levels in female-bodied persons, and it's helped me personally quite a bit. Fish oil has also been shown to increase testosterone, and the capsules are pretty inexpensive.

The calming effects of testosterone, I have to believe, come with the suppression of female hormones, in some cases, and with the feeling that you're finally living as the person you are, in others. In my case, I suffer from horrible PMDD and debilitating menstrual cramps, as well as bipolar disorder that cycles with my menses; testosterone stopped all that, and made my life exponentially easier. Unforunately, there's not much you can do to suppress female hormones apart from replacing them.

Your friend's moods could be helped quite a bit by therapy, I'm sure, but again, in its absence, it is possible to do some things. B12 deficiency can cause depression, as can Vitamin K deficiency, so multivitamins are always a good idea. I'd steer clear of St. John's Wort, though; it has properties comparable to MAOI antidepressants... which means it has potentially deadly interactions with certain drugs and foods.

Good luck.

SD

Quote from: Lokaeign on April 15, 2009, 10:29:01 AM
Don't know if this helps, but my understanding is that phyto-testosterones for FtMs are basically a crock.  If one has factory-equipped testes, one can take substances that will encourage them to make more T or else improve the body's ability to make use of whatever male hormones are already sloshing around.  You can get T that is derived from plant sources, but it will have been heavily chemically processed to get from plant extract to testosterone.  But there's basically nothing in the world of flora that will do what T does.  (I am not a herbalist, just someone who's gone through a lot of literature on herbalism whimpering "but there must be something..!")

Phyto-oestragens are a different matter.  They certainly exist, and there's good anecdotal support for them being useful for some people.

You friend could talk to a doctor about a low does of anti-anxiety medicine, or to a herbalist about using valerian or some other anti-anxiety herb.  T does improve mood in a lot of people, but there's plenty of other things to try first.

Interesting. Ah well, it was worth exploring.

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Post Merge: April 16, 2009, 07:07:12 AM

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Quote from: Sebastien on April 15, 2009, 11:44:37 PM
I'm a big advocate of therapy, but if your buddy isn't into that, an exercise regimen might help, if he's not on one already. Adrenaline can raise testosterone levels in female-bodied persons, and it's helped me personally quite a bit. Fish oil has also been shown to increase testosterone, and the capsules are pretty inexpensive.

The calming effects of testosterone, I have to believe, come with the suppression of female hormones, in some cases, and with the feeling that you're finally living as the person you are, in others. In my case, I suffer from horrible PMDD and debilitating menstrual cramps, as well as bipolar disorder that cycles with my menses; testosterone stopped all that, and made my life exponentially easier. Unforunately, there's not much you can do to suppress female hormones apart from replacing them.

Your friend's moods could be helped quite a bit by therapy, I'm sure, but again, in its absence, it is possible to do some things. B12 deficiency can cause depression, as can Vitamin K deficiency, so multivitamins are always a good idea. I'd steer clear of St. John's Wort, though; it has properties comparable to MAOI antidepressants... which means it has potentially deadly interactions with certain drugs and foods.

Good luck.

SD

I can see this is less simple than I was hoping it might be. Maybe I could persuade him to get some more exercise  Thank you for your advice.

Anyway, I'm pleased that you don't have to suffer the worst of your hormonal cycle any longer.  It's a big enough pain when, like me, you are happy with the body you were born into, but it must be sheer hell for FTMs. It's not something I can talk to my friend about. He's too shy.