All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty? Guys, would you have top surgery if your breasts made no difference in whether or not you were considered a man? How about hormones?

Please really think about this... I know some people might automatically say, "Of course I'd want surgery and hormones!" because that's what you're accustomed to, and you live in this world, not the hypothetical one, but really... I'm curious as to just how much the public's view of gender has to do with how far we are willing to go.

To start it off, here's my answer: I absolutely wouldn't have any surgery; my breasts are merely a hindrance to how I'm seen by the outside world. I would, however, go on testosterone, due to its effects on my emotional well-being that are completely unrelated to how others see me.

Looking forward to folks' responses.

SD

I would still care about the breasts. I would still need them removed because they bothered me before they were big enough for other people to notice them.
I'm honestly not sure about the HRT. I like the idea of bulking up more than estrogen permits me now, and having my voice finally change. I don't like the idea of having to shave or getting hairy. Passing as a man is the number one factor in T for me. Remove that, and I don't know how much I'd need it or not.
(guess we'll see soon. maybe I'm wrong and I wouldn't be able to do without it  )

So, I would still definitely have top surgery, and I'm not sure about the hormones.

Great topic, dude.

If society was that great, then I am thinking this is at least a thousand of years into the future, and by then modern technology will be so advance to transform anyone to exact real gender they were suppose to be.

And if all genders were treated equally, then there would be no reason to do that. But the option would be available, and most likely if I felt like in the wrong gender physically. I would still change, since body needs to match mentality, even though society accepts it.

However with such a great society there will be other changes at the time, some unimaginable (mutants) while others like rich versus poor will remain.

Good question

I would still have top/bottom surgery as I need it for myself to feel complete.  I am not to sure about the T, I would probably stay on it for a while to get my desired affects so say 2 years to get the full affects and then come off obviously if I had a hysto before hand.

I am not transitioning to make other peoples lifes easier just my own.

Jay

Quote from: Sebastien on April 20, 2009, 02:00:18 AM
All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty? Guys, would you have top surgery if your breasts made no difference in whether or not you were considered a man? How about hormones?

Please really think about this... I know some people might automatically say, "Of course I'd want surgery and hormones!" because that's what you're accustomed to, and you live in this world, not the hypothetical one, but really... I'm curious as to just how much the public's view of gender has to do with how far we are willing to go.

To start it off, here's my answer: I absolutely wouldn't have any surgery; my breasts are merely a hindrance to how I'm seen by the outside world. I would, however, go on testosterone, due to its effects on my emotional well-being that are completely unrelated to how others see me.

Looking forward to folks' responses.

SD

I agree with you and that's the path I've taken for the last 17 years, there are people who accept one out there, the trick is to find them and to find peace.

Quoteif society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now?

I aint doin this 4 ppl I'm doin this 4 me. I'd sitll want T & top surgery but thats it. no bottom surgery.

QuoteAll these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking

non-op. pre-op. post-op wtf? we're dudes & the ladies r ladies w/surgery or w/o surgery.

Quote from: Chris on April 20, 2009, 03:36:28 AM
non-op. pre-op. post-op wtf? we're dudes & the ladies r ladies w/surgery or w/o surgery.

Second that!

Jay

Yes I think I would. I don't really care how society sees or accepts me. I want to pass as female for saftey sake, too many strange people beat up on TG 'cos we are seen as pick-on-able.

I want completeness for me. Not for society.
But an interesting question.
Maybe one day we would not have to be genderised until we could say what we are.
Well Number 67894, you have reached 11yrs old do you wish to be a boy or girl or a mixture. Zap, Pow. Genderised

Or would we accept that?

LoL
Cindy James

Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:16:12 AM

Maybe one day we would not have to be genderised until we could say what we are.
Well Number 67894, you have reached 11yrs old do you wish to be a boy or girl or a mixture. Zap, Pow. Genderised

Or would we accept that?

LoL
Cindy James

Doubt it. As it would be seen as too young to be able to realise what they truely want. My parents still think I am too young, and I am near 22. So 11 is a high no no.

Jay

Yea
I told my parents when I was 13. Didn't go down well. Left for Australia at 22 to build a life.

I suppose it's the legal age? 18? But when do we make the choice.

My apologies I forgot who stated the thread; but if the question was what would we do if society was totally accepting would you still have SRS?

If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?

Cindy James

Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totally accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?

Cindy James

I think a lot of people would take advantage of this. But then wouldn't it be highly confusing for most people as you wouldn't know when gender they would be from the next.  I think it would also cause a lot more uproar.

The idea is good though. As each sex has its advantages but I personally wouldn't want to be a woman. But I think a lot of people would experiment with the idea.

Jay

Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?

Nope...
I used to think about that when I was younger (body swaps) and came to the conclusion I would probably have kept the body, leaving some poor woman stuck in a male body. Well, I would except I couldn't do that to a person who was unwilling. Why would I want to swap back and forth, I want to swap and be done with it.


I agree with Chris, it's about me, not other people. So yes, I would still do it.

I had to do it for ME, to be complete, to be whole, and that has not changed, not even 35 years after the fact.

Everyone else already seems to care a lot more than I do.  Perhaps, over the hills and far away I felt different, it seemed more urgent.  Or at least more demanding in some way.  People pretty much accept me for who I am.  I've structured my world to be just so.  And with that, other things seem less important.

I have done all in my power to not Care so much what others think. Sometimes I make my husband incredibly uncomfortable by simply talking out loud about topics we've been discussing outside while walking to a restaurant/video-shop..
I don't dress to "pass" as what I want to be seen as by others. I dress to feel like myself in my own skin.

As such, I do believe I'd have top surgery even if it wasn't a problem to anyone else.

Even without any pressure from society to make my body more masculine, I would definately have my breasts removed, because even before I began identifying as male, I knew it was something that I was going to do someday. I would also still want to take testosterone, because I really hate my squeaky voice and lack of muscle mass. (and I really would like facial hair...) Also, losing that nasty time-of-the-month thing? Count me in!

But for me, it's not really about 'fitting in' as male so much as feeling comfortable in my own skin - a feminine body feels so utterly /wrong/ to me that I can't imagine trying to live my entire life in it. Even if people widely accepted me as male without surgery and HRT, I would still feel the need to change my body because at the moment it doesn't match with what my mind says it should be.

Quote from: Sebastien on April 20, 2009, 02:00:18 AM
All these non-op and surgery posts have gotten me thinking... if society, etc, accepted people as the gender they chose to express, rather than what their outward appearance suggested, would any of us still go through the measures we do now? Consider that all other things remain as they are now... surgery, etc, still costs as much, and carries the same dangers. If, for instance, you are mtf, and people across the board accepted you as a woman despite your having a penis, would you still want to have vaginoplasty?

This is all hypothetical in the sense that for a number of reasons I've pretty much settled on being permanently non-op, and moreover identify as androgyne in the social sense. Despite -- or perhaps because of -- this I'm quite convinced that if the society was totally accepting I'd still want vaginoplasty. I suspect that I might be even more likely to go for it than I am in the world we live in.

The reason I want it has very little to do with social acceptance, but rather it's because I'd love to have a physical vagina instead of the phantom one I've felt for about as long as I can remember paying attention to my genitals. A similar thing happened already when I got some gynaecomasty as a side effect from finasteride: the 36A breasts I have do not in any way make me look obviously non-male, they just feel right. Similarly, while tucking about 23.5/7 (have to take a shower every now and then ) feels better than the alternative, it still isn't as good as the real thing. If the various social issues were out of the equation (including my wife being strictly heterosexual, which we both consider rather unfortunate) I might be willing to gamble the medical side of what in the end is pretty serious surgery.

Quote from: CindyJames on April 20, 2009, 04:38:08 AM
If society was totaly accepting would you keep swapping back and fore?

Funny thing you asked. This winter my work led me to spend quite a bit of time in Second Life, in an environment where I interacted with a hundred or so students both there and in real life. While getting myself acquainted with the virtual world my plan was to swap back and forth, and try to blur the gender lines as much as possible. That lasted for the first couple of weeks -- after that I'd settled with being unambiguously female, although mostly of the jeans-and-T-shirt variety. I was rather surprised at how the clear androgynous identity I have with regard to gender roles didn't carry at all into even a virtual representation of my physical body.

  Nfr

I would care about one half as much. My issues with gender are split evenly between being uncomfortable being treated male and being uncomfortable looking male to my own eyes.

If society didn't care and would address me as the gender I was presenting, I think I'd still want hair removal. That would be for me, because I abhor my body hair.

As for surgery, I'm not so certain. Even if money were not a limiting factor, I'm still not sure. It would be nice (I think) to have breasts. But, I'm not so sure I'd still want to go through surgery. It would be great to have a genderqueer body, combining female and male attributes. Maybe I'd do it (if money were not a limiting factor).

If society were accepting but my financial resources were the same as they were now, no.

Hmm..  Even if I could keep my chest the way it is and still be considered a man by society...  I'd want the breasts removed.  When unbound, I simply dislike the silhouette they create.  I'm not even sure if it's because I'm seeing that silhouette as feminine; I have a hard time seeing my chest as feminine, really (but it does mess with my head to think that someone else might think that--so I suppose in a different society, that paranoia of others seeing my chest would be gone).  The breasts are... so underdeveloped and wide-set that they really do look like a case of gynecomastia.  It's honestly a lot about aesthetics to me; I'd like to be able to see the contour of (developing) pectoral muscle under my skin, rather than have lumpy breast tissue obscuring it.  I'd also like not having to wear tight garments on hot days/while doing physical activities (small as they are, running with 'em unbound still hurts).

As for the T...  It seems to play nicer with my brain than estrogen ever did.  Not sure if that is an actual or an imagined effect, though...