Ok, here goes...

In my personal opinion they are a waste of time and I have my reasons for saying this.

Besides English I speak two other languages - Italian (fluently) & Indonesian (not too bad). What is interesting is the relationship between gender roles and the use of gender specific words in different cultures.

From a language standpoint Italian is very gender specific to the point of nouns being genderised to the extent of Arancio (m) meaning Orange Tree and Arancia (f) meaning Orange - The Fruit. Of course there are words for He and She - Lui and Lei and in certain cases even the past participle changes as in Sono andato/Sono andata and so on...

Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia) on the other hand is to our eyes extremely non gender specific with the word for He or She being the same - Dia, and verb tenses not even existing in a Western sense.

English I suppose takes the middle ground between these polarities but uses His table/Her table where the other two languages would not be gender specific, Italian using the gender of the table itself - Suo Tavolo and Indonesian just being generic - Mejanya (the nya coming from the non specific Dia).

My point is that in all three cultures gender roles are very set irrespective of language so what is the point of trying to change the language? Surely it's the culture that we need to change to a more accepting one, not the language itself.

Thanks for reading

It is an interesting conundrum -- my dad speaks spanish natively and always runs into problems where he uses him/her wrong because he's thinking of the gender of the word in spanish rather than the gender of the person/thing in english.  This usually happens with our female cats since in spanish it is El Gato (m).

What's tricky is that in reality language is inextricably tied up with culture -- the effort to use gender-neutral pronouns is as much about changing the language as it is about the culture, and the existence (and use) of gendered pronouns affects the way english-speakers understand gender culturally in the first place.

So yes, culture is what we want to change, but that necessarily includes changing the way we use language .

Really?

In Italian we have - il gatto, la gatta, il gattino, la gattina, il gattone and last but not least i gatti or i gattini! Notice how the default plural is always masculine.

My Indonesian relatives all get confused in English with He and She with often very funny consequences. Never bothers me at all to be honest but it does make me laugh

Quote from: imaz on April 23, 2009, 05:51:22 AM
Really?

In Italian we have - il gatto, la gatta, il gattino, la gattina, il gattone and last but not least i gatti or i gattini! Notice how the default plural is always masculine.

My Indonesian relatives all get confused in English with He and She with often very funny consequences. Never bothers me at all to be honest but it does make me laugh

Hmm, I guess there is La Gata (I don't actually speak fluent spanish myself), but when talking about a cat that you don't know the gender of it reverts to El Gato (but other words revert to a female gendered word, depends on the word).

Part of the thing is that in Spanish there isn't 'his' or 'hers' there is just 'su' -- so when he has to make the conversion from 'su' to the appropriate 'his' or 'hers' in english, it can become easy to confuse the gender of the word with the gender of the person/thing.

But for many english speakers who don't know another language, the idea of gendered words that aren't for what english speakers think of as gendered objects (such as a table or a plate) is just bizarre.  There are objects (it) and people/animals (him/her).  Occasionally you run into things like boats, which are always 'she' or 'her', but mostly not.

Also, indonesian is a neat language -- I started learning it on some interactive gizmo on an airplane (coming back from australia), but I've forgotten all the words I learned.

What kinds of gender pronouns are we talking about? My experience with gender neutral pronouns was extremely limited until I came to college. Here I've met two different friends who prefer gender neutral pronouns. My first friend prefers that they be referred in third person plural pronouns. Love them to death.
Second one prefers to be referred to as ze-gendered(ze, hir, hir, hirs). I must admit this one was a bit abstract to me at first but its really grown on me. It seems a little hard to get people who aren't "gender-conscious"(for lack of a better word) to follow along, but in a setting where people are sensitive and aware of ze's choice its a complete non-issue.
I think its interesting because, to my knowledge, languages either seem gendered or non-specific. While I see English as a gendered language, I also think that the evolution of gender neutral pronouns came about because we do not possess enough language to express gender, so the gender-neutral pronoun allows for the expression of self without constraint.
Sarrah

I get a little weird about gender neutral pronouns in English because I'm a bit of a word nut (I'm a creative writer) and to me they kind of stick out on the page -- but that's probably because I'm just not used to seeing them.  I tend to use them/they/theirs when gender is unknown even though technically its not correct to do that, but that doesn't work for all circumstances anyway.

I think a good comparison with Spanish for English speakers [I'm studying Spanish, myself] is when we refer to ships, cars, or countries as "she, her."  [Oops, just noticed Ketsy mentioned this..]

"She's a beaut."
"I will protect her (my country)."

You're not actually thinking about your boat as being female-bodied, you just refer to it with those pronouns.  And if you ever heard anyone refer to a boat as "him," you might think it sounded slightly odd- you'd understand what they were saying but it wouldn't be quite right.

Except that in Spanish, almost every noun is referred to this way, and almost every adjective has to be modified to agree grammatically with the gender of the noun.  It's ingrained in the grammar.  Default is masculine, and there are masculine and feminine connotations to "they," as well.  For example, when talking about a group of men, it's ellos.  A group of women, ellas.  But a group of men and women mixed, is still ellos.  Even if there is only one man in the group and 99 women, it's ellos.

I wonder what a gender neutral pronoun would look like in Spanish?  Ello/ella/elle?

A group of people(spanish): Estas personas. Estos pendejos. There are exceptions to the gender rule e.g., hand is La mano. 

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on April 23, 2009, 08:05:30 AM
A group of people(spanish): Estas personas. Estos pendejos. There are exceptions to the gender rule e.g., hand is La mano.

The same in Italian.

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Post Merge: April 23, 2009, 10:01:58 AM

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Quote from: Ketsy on April 23, 2009, 06:46:43 AM
Hmm, I guess there is La Gata (I don't actually speak fluent spanish myself), but when talking about a cat that you don't know the gender of it reverts to El Gato (but other words revert to a female gendered word, depends on the word).

Part of the thing is that in Spanish there isn't 'his' or 'hers' there is just 'su' -- so when he has to make the conversion from 'su' to the appropriate 'his' or 'hers' in english, it can become easy to confuse the gender of the word with the gender of the person/thing.

But for many english speakers who don't know another language, the idea of gendered words that aren't for what english speakers think of as gendered objects (such as a table or a plate) is just bizarre.  There are objects (it) and people/animals (him/her).  Occasionally you run into things like boats, which are always 'she' or 'her', but mostly not.

Also, indonesian is a neat language -- I started learning it on some interactive gizmo on an airplane (coming back from australia), but I've forgotten all the words I learned.

Cat in Indonesian is "Kucing", kitten is "Anak Kucing", cats are "Kucing Kucing"!

Koochie koochie koo.

I've always thought the whole gender neutral pronoun thing would be very difficult if not impossible to get off the ground and into the vocabulary and use of the general population...

Using they, them, and their as third person singular pronouns when you don't wish to or need o specify a gender goes way back in English - all the way back to Shakespeare and beyond. And it has the merit of meshing with some common casual habits, too. I'm a big fan.

It's worth a shot. You want to change culture? Well, language is part of culture. It is much more difficult to have an idea if you can't express it in words.

"They" is taking over, and that's a good thing. Facebook uses "they" in status updates if you don't specify your sex. Good for them. It's not just for transgendered/genderqueer people, but for general use; the old rule that if you are referring to an arbitrary person from a group of 99 girls and one boy, you must use "he" is ridiculous, sexist, stupid, confusing, awkward, and just plain lame in every way. Use "they." If you come across a nineteenth-century grammar Nazi who doesn't like it, tell them to get that stick out of their butt.

Just because other languages suck, it doesn't mean we shouldn't improve English.  

But I like how, despite the Academie Francaise's adherence to that stupid sexist rule (not to mention the Academie's existence in general), in French "une personne" is always feminine, even if there is no possibility that the particular "personne" is a woman. 

Think it is in most latin based languages... una persona.

Personally I don't think English is that great a language except for reasons of practicality and easy "updateablity".

As shown by that last invented word!

Quote from: Ceri on April 23, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
Using they, them, and their as third person singular pronouns when you don't wish to or need o specify a gender goes way back in English - all the way back to Shakespeare and beyond. And it has the merit of meshing with some common casual habits, too. I'm a big fan.

What they said.

Gender-neutral pronouns are a good idea, but most of the ones people have come with are awkward.  "They" sounds best in my opinion, but still sometimes seems wrong to use (technically, all the time, but "their" is a lot shorter than "his or her," and is also more inclusive).  In some languages, like French, the language is more gendered and thus difficult to change (it's ils or elles: no gender neutral alternative).

My neighbour asked me once why I always call girls HIM and I said oh sorry not HIM, 'EM as in short for THEM. lol  Yes in all my trying to use proper grammar I still use the half word 'em a lot lol!  For example "Well I was gonna call 'em back."  To me 'em works for a single person or group, she, he or mixed.

The first time I took my new born daughter out in a dress 3 people said "Oh he's so cute".  I came to the conclusion that in society it is socially acceptable to call a little girl 'him' and then 'oh sorry it's a girl' but if you called a little boy a GIRL by accident oh then your going to H***!

I was taught to use he and she so that's what I do.  I took English, French and Spanish in school and as earlier noted the languages are a bit different however I did notice that each language has a name for a male parent and a name for a female parent.  Also I am a tia (aunt).

I use 'em.
Em and 'es - and a policemun - could be male or female.

Actually, "they" isn't incorrect.  It only became standard to use "he" when only boys were educated.  Then they added "she" to make it more inclusive.  I've always used "they" in speech, which tells me on my own that it's acceptable.  It was in writing that I learned to use "he or she".  In this case, I think the verbal tradition tells us more than academic tradition.

As far as trying to use words like 'zie' or 'sie', 'e' or 'em'...on a forum like this, sure.  I can manage.  But in the real world and in speech, it's too awkward.  Not only do they not sound right because we aren't used to them (they also don't sound natural because we trip on them), but you'd have to explain it every time. 

I'm sticking with "they/them" in times of uncertainty or gender neutrality.  Otherwise, I'm going to use the standard "he/she".

On a side note, how often am I going to hear someone refer to me with a third person pronoun?  Not often enough to get riled up about it.  It's one thing if you are TS and you are transitioning/getting ready to transition and another thing entirely if you don't identify with the binary.  I don't think it's reasonable to get upset if someone refers to you with the pronoun of the sex you are presenting as (unless it's someone you're out to and have discussed pronouns with...then just correct them).

I support gender neutral pronouns, and I'd like to see them formally recognized if only for the purpose of the expanding the language. I don't want them replacing anything, but I don't see why it hurts to have something gender neutral, it only aid us in description.

I don't think its very feasible for them to be socially adopted though, at least not presently.