I've heard this a little bit in my time, that androgynes, well a certain segment of androgynes, are transsexuals in denial.

Definitely there are transsexuals that find androgyny a comfortable half-way house, a stopover in their journey, and I'm not referring to them or those that just want to appear androgynous.

Then there are those like myself that feel their internal gender is neither male nor female. I've noticed that many of these same people actually say that they would be happier with the body of the opposite sex. I myself would rather have a female body. I am pretty ambivalent about having a penis though, seems to do the job for me. But I can't help but think that if I sorted out my body then my dysphoria would focus on that part of my body. It would suddenly become incongruent. I've heard other transsexuals talking about this same experience.

This morning I was thinking about something me and my counsellor discussed that likely I have not fully discovered who I am. This comes from never before having the freedom to express myself as I like or having people to reflect off. As a result of this, because I'm not solid in my core self, I am really sensitive to external stuff like comments made by other people which seems to be one trigger for my depression.

Anyway I was thinking that if I was a woman the image of the woman I wanted to be is actually at odds with society i.e. a gender queer woman. A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is. Anyway, just typing out loud, I'm hoping writing it down will help me clarify my thoughts.

I feel like I am making headway, maybe I am on to something. Perhaps this is just one of those teenage like phases of self exploration. The thought that perhaps I am actually a woman terrifies me for some reason, I think it makes things harder because then I will feel like I have a standard to live up to.

I'm male-bodied, but I think that genderfluid or genderflux best describes my gender identity at this time.

Ideally, I'd have a body that combines male and female physical attributes. That said, I'd like to be able to pass either male or female at will. There are days when I feel more one than the other, and vice versa. There are days when I feel like neither, and would love to "pass" as neither. That is to say, I'd want to present an image that would be indeterminate.

Is this transexualism in denial? I'd never thought of it that way. I'm not really sure if I can answer that question.

Any statement of the form "A is just B in denial" is suspect.

Quote from: Lisbeth on April 23, 2009, 03:43:39 PM
Any statement of the form "A is just B in denial" is suspect.

Absolutely, I'm not saying this would apply to everyone that considers themselves androgyne, perhaps only myself.

Quote from: Nicky on April 23, 2009, 03:16:46 PM

Anyway I was thinking that if I was a woman the image of the woman I wanted to be was actually at odds with society i.e. a gender queer woman. A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is. Anyway, just typing out loud, I'm hoping writing it down will help me clarify my thoughts.

I feel like I am making headway, maybe I am on to something. Perhaps this is just one of those teenage like phases of self exploration. The thought that perhaps I am actually a woman terrifies me for some reason, I think it makes things harder because then I will feel like I have a standard to live up to.

Hi Nicky, I don't think you are in denial at all.

Actually what you say about the image of the woman you want to be being in conflict with your image of what a woman is perfectly normal. Please don't take this as anything threatening in a psychological sense, but it's extremely common amongst gender born women to feel exactly the same. I live with two women who fall into that very category.

If you are a woman, and only you Nicky can know the truth as regards that, there are no standards you need to live up to except those that apply to us whatever our gender(s). That is to be decent human being.

Much love and hugs and you are certainly making headway in self acceptance

-imaz-

Thank you Imaz. It would be nice to know if others have been through a similar experience, I would take heart if it was common.

Maybe you are right. Denial might not be the right words...but it certainly makes a provocative title 

Yes Nicky, I've been there too

At the end of the day I worked out that I'd be happier as an androgynous female than as an androgynous male.

Took me a long time to suss it as especially in this community such positions used to be frowned on especially by the evil trolls who gate-kept at Charing X.

Really relate to all you say, thank you for your honesty and openness.

Nicky,

You do ask the most interesting questions.

First off, I do believe that there are SOME folks who identify as androgyne that truly are transsexuals (whether in denial or just unrealized).  That being said, there are SOME honest lawyers and SOME Used Car Salesmen that you can trust.  If we have learned anything from being outside the gender binary, it is that EVERYTHING is outside the True/False binary in some form or another.

OK...caveats out of the way...here comes the fun part

There have been times that I wished very strongly that I was TS.  Not only would it make things easier to explain to everyone, but would also put some kind of boundaries around my gender.  Being gender fluid makes for all kinds of fun.

Like you, I don't have a problem with my male bits, except when they get in the way or have been tucked for too long.  I actually enjoy the benefits (like peeing while standing) and have no desire to be rid of it/them.  I have bigger issues with hair growing everywhere and trying to get rid of all my "table muscle" while trying to find that perfect mix of male/female presentation based on how I am feeling at the moment and who I will be around.

As you said, maybe once everything else is settled down I MIGHT have a problem down there, but if and when that time comes, I will address it then.  We are all on a journey with only a rough destination in mind...the rest, we just make up as we go.  Who knows what twists and turns we may find tomorrow or next week or next year?  The surest road to unhappiness it to fix your expectations upon something that will not happen.  If I plan my finances on winning the lottery in June, come July I'll most likely be filing bankruptcy.  The same can be said of choosing our final destination before we even finish the first mile.

Anyway, for now, I'm just trying to be the best Laurry I can.  Everything else is TBD.

.....L 

I first wondered if I were a transexual when I was a high school freshman or sophomore standing in the drugstore flipping through a biography of Christine Jorgenson. Most recently, I wondered about it a year ago.

Other times, I've just felt society has created categories and barriers that just don't match reality. I am more like some women than most men, but quite different from some women and like some men. I am so unlike the men I see in TV commercials, I cannot understand them and cannot picture myself in love with one no matter what body I had. And the transexual body lacks the one aspect my wife repeatedly stresses as a key difference between us: menstruation.

The women I've been closest to are strong-willed and independent, and I am generally satisfied with the relationships I have with them. The fourth-grade idea of competition between men and women is entirely foreign to me.

So the category of androgyne is very appealing. I intend to remain one of Nero's subjects in the unicorn forest. None of what I've written sounds wise, consistent, or comprehensive to me. Nicky, I want to clarify my own thoughts and watch your journey with intense interest.

Keep writing,
S

I saw a woman today and I wished I had her hips. I don't think I'm in denial but I guess it would be easier to just be binary.

Paradise is being with a group of genderqueers.

I wonder if your wife will still be saying that after menopause?

Does it all come down to the nature of being male and female (or not being)? Perhaps they are simply groups people belong to and what that means is up to the individual? I think you are right. Society has created categories and barriers that just don't match reality, but maybe they are good approximations. Where does the desire to fit a category come from? What is the nature of gender...

What if gender is simply a sense of belonging or not belonging to a category? Beyond that everything else is fair game. Or maybe it is some unseen interconectedness. Women or men in spirit if not in body or action.

My mind is loving the idea, that I could be a woman of my own design. I could be a woman and the kind of woman I am is me. I could share some of the warmth of their/our fire, I could belong.

I've asked myself similar questions. Where I seem to always end up is that I'm some sort of non op androgyne TS person who isn't either binary gender. If I were to ever decide to transform my body to more female spectrum, I think I'd still be neither or in between.

Z

Yes, it all sounds very familiar. Surprising, eh? 

I wouldn't call myself a TS in denial, though, but rather one in remission. In terms of physical sex, my feelings are pretty much 'normal TS', only I'm willing to put up with the congenital dildo -- the way I see it, it's not much different from how people deal with more traditional birth defects. I'm glad that Susan added a non-op category, now I've got a second home.

In terms of social gender I'm pretty clearly an androgyne, and have been since about primary school. I suspect it's at least partly because my upbringing made me find a way for a girl to grow up to a man. In any case, I'm convinced that if I transitioned I'd be just as non-stereotypical as I'm now. In the social sense there's no need for me to transition -- as a woman I'm genderqueer enough that people seem willing to see me as a man. Inside I'm just me and let others gender me the way they want to, and any physical changes I may make won't change this outlook.

Of course, that's just me; the gender/sex complex is a strange and wonderful thing, and there's a lot of variation.

  Nfr

i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.

Quote from: Nicky on April 23, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
A big chunk of not feeling like a woman for me is that I reject the rules for being a woman in our society, I will not be bound by them, I don't want to act like them. I want freedom from the gender shackles. The problem is this clashes with my internal image of what a woman is. Perhaps I am a woman, just not the type of woman that fits my image of what a woman is.

This describes exactly how I feel. It's also probably why I tend to identify as both an androgyne -and- a transwoman. For the most part I do primarily identify as a woman. I think I just use the androgyne and trans parts as qualifiers.

Androgyne was a step in my self acceptance.
Like a midway point from my stubborn "I'm a girl I should act like one" to the acceptance that I wasn't a girl, never felt like a girl, and want to change the flesh to suit "me"..
The "maybe I'm just androgyne.." gave me a short reprieve where I didn't feel like I had to make any choice what so ever cause, it was okay,.. everyone's both feminine and masculine to some extend, and gender's just a social construct, and I can just be me without caring what my underwear contains..

Didn't last.

Quote from: Pica Pica on April 24, 2009, 05:03:34 AM
i often see women and have little pulls in that direction. I reckon had i been born a woman, I'd have not discovered myself as an androgyne, yet i still would have been one. I think my preferred social roles are female and so I wouldn't have felt the tug of being an androgyne so strongly - i think i would have gone through life as a slightly disconnected woman. So far I have been going through life as a very disconnected man....Now I am trying to be a connected androgyne, which is hard because to do so you have to discover how androgynes connect.

As far as cultural and social norms, I prefer and naturally take the role of a woman.  I feel that is a factor in the incongruence I feel as a man as others have expressed here.  In the past, I allowed my fear of acceptance drive me toward stereotypical male behaviors (rather than my natural female ones) which led to more incongruence and ultimately to transition, where I felt right - right behaviors, right presentation, right body.  That didn't last though - I began to feel that I SHOULD be able to be a male with my natural roles and so now I am attempting that.

So I've been where you are Nicky and I totally get your comment Pica.  I'm just trying to not let those "little pulls" as Pica calls them, to drive me back to transition.  It takes strength to challenge my biases, my cultural imprinting, and the social norms in order to be the kind of PERSON I am inside and do so in a male body.

Androgyny is soooooo appealing, but I realize it is another escape - an escape into kind of a "half" transition so I don't have to face the social consequences of being male and acting and feeling female.

Nothing wrong with escapism! Why do you feel you mustn't give in to you true nature? Religious/social reasons?

Quote from: imaz on April 24, 2009, 10:14:13 AM
Nothing wrong with escapism! Why do you feel you mustn't give in to you true nature? Religious/social reasons?

What is my true nature?  Can I even define it in some esoteric, believable way?  I know my nature by the way I naturally act, and though cultural norms dictate that might be female, there is no book written in the sky that says that is correct.  There is a chance that the incongruity I feel between body and mind relates to how I act naturally.  If this is the case, I feel that if I learn to be comfortable in my natural female cultural role, as a male bodied person, the incongruence will lessen as well - maybe even disappear (gasp!).

I personly hate being seen as just a guy but being just a girl probably wouldn't be any better there are things that I would choose to be female but I don't know if any treatment would change some of those things for the better other things hormanes would definetly help but the one thing male that I won't get rid of is my beard although it may disapear as a way to convince shrinks to give me hormones but It wont be gone for long
sometimes i think it would be so much easier if I was TS as the boxes in the minds of shrinks would be ticked easily
most of societys gender "rules" I disagree with.
I don't won't to change the rule book I follow. I want to throw them both out and just be me