Nicky, this is a topic dear to my heart.  I have trouble accepting TG.

I will need to think on this topic.  I can not answer it as of this time.

I have suppressed my feeling for so many decades that I have difficulty navigating out of my own mind and I can not accept myself.

I don't think there are any rules to the middle ground Noel, if there were we would reject them. I think the middle ground is about not having rules. There are lots of ways to be 'non-binary'.

What we do seem to lack is rolemodels. People who live in a non-binary way that is similar to how we would like to live in a non-binary way.

Wendy, I think we all collect 'baggage' to a certain extent. Some of this can be very difficult to budge. Take all the time you need.

Well, after thinking about this for a bit more, then not thinking about it, I think I have come to the conclusion that I still don't know if I am a woman though I am definitly not a man, but damn I sure would like to look like a woman and be free to be socially a woman if I choose and not get looked at funny when I walk into a womans clothes shop... This is interesting as I used to think I would be happier being more of a 'blend'. I don't think I would be. What I was not expecting was the feeling that to achieve living as a woman is going to be a much bigger hill than living in the tween. But I believe that when I get there things will be so much better.

Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 09:56:28 PM

What we do seem to lack is rolemodels. People who live in a non-binary way that is similar to how we would like to live in a non-binary way.

One reason we don't have many androgyne role models is because many of us are invisible, or perceived as something else than what we are.

Z

My counsellor Mani is intersexed and trying to live in a non-binary way. She has a wispy goaty that she says is her attempt to be more visible. Just thought I would include it to our mix of visible 'non-binary' imagery. I love her pictures because she always seem real and authentic to me.

Quote from: Noel on May 04, 2009, 08:02:25 PM
I think an HIR is like being everything and nothing at the same time... I like the gender bending and to me, is that what my androgyny can be defined as?  Or does it have to be like an HIR?

What is an HIR?

That is a good question.  It came to Caden and mine's attention when another friend was speaking about this person at a retreat and kept using it.  So I wikipedia'd it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns

The best why I can simplify it is saying it's like being everything and nothing.  Being both boy and girl but neither.

I think it's just an andro term created so you didn't have to reference she or he, him or her.

Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 09:56:28 PM

Wendy, I think we all collect 'baggage' to a certain extent. Some of this can be very difficult to budge. Take all the time you need.

Well, after thinking about this for a bit more, then not thinking about it, I think I have come to the conclusion that I still don't know if I am a woman though I am definitly not a man, but damn I sure would like to look like a woman and be free to be socially a woman if I choose and not get looked at funny when I walk into a womans clothes shop... This is interesting as I used to think I would be happier being more of a 'blend'. I don't think I would be. What I was not expecting was the feeling that to achieve living as a woman is going to be a much bigger hill than living in the tween. But I believe that when I get there things will be so much better.

Nicky I can agree with those comments.  My mind does not see me as a male even though society sees me as a male.  I'd prefer to be a female but now I am right in the middle.  Society views me now as very different male. 

It has taken me my lifetime to get this far.  Is there an option to be a girl without going through TS?  What I have done to this point seems to have been the right thing for me.  It is a crossroad.  We can almost reverse your question Nicky.  Do TS folks stop because they are androgynes and do not know it?

What is the end point of androgynes?  My goodness every male and every female has some aspect and/or feature that would fit in the other gender.

That is the million dollar question - what is the end point? I think it is differnt for us all and perhaps it is an ever moving target for some. Nobody really stays still. We grow older, we make life 'transitions'.  Maybe the key is to be happy with the journey?

Transition is not a straight A to B either. They can go in all sorts of directions and people stop off along the way or get back on again, or change tracks.

You can certainly be a girl in a way you want to be, some people manage to be socially woman even if they don't 'pass', some people live part time - one gender at work, but live as the other in all other respects. You can decide it now "I am a girl" and nothing else external changes that. For some people this brings a lot of peace.

I suspect you are right that some, but not all, TS folk stop because they are androgynes and don't know it. We actually have a few members here that transitioned fully then pulled back some of the way when they found it was not right for them. 

the end point is death isn't it?

Quote from: Noel on May 05, 2009, 02:55:07 PM
That is a good question.  It came to Caden and mine's attention when another friend was speaking about this person at a retreat and kept using it.  So I wikipedia'd it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hir#Modern_attempts_at_gender-equity_in_English_pronouns

The best why I can simplify it is saying it's like being everything and nothing.  Being both boy and girl but neither.

I think it's just an andro term created so you didn't have to reference she or he, him or her.

Ah, "HIR" as in the gender-neutral pronoun. I guess I'm just not used to seeing it written in all caps and I think my coffee-starved brain was reading it as an acronym. Thanks for getting me back on track there. 

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 05:16:15 PM
the end point is death isn't it?

Aren't you supposed to preface this with one of those spoilers so those of us who haven't finished the Book of Life don't read the denouement inadvertantly?

Darn,
S

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Post Merge: May 05, 2009, 06:07:21 PM

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Quote from: Nicky on May 04, 2009, 10:11:07 PM
My counsellor Mani is intersexed and trying to live in a non-binary way. She has a wispy goaty that she says is her attempt to be more visible.

That and her eyebrows look natural. All in all, looks like the face of someone I'd enjoy talking with.

Best wishes for your journey.
S

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 05, 2009, 05:56:17 PM
Aren't you supposed to preface this with one of those spoilers so those of us who haven't finished the Book of Life don't read the denouement inadvertantly?

No, it's like the film Titanic, we all know it's going to sink - but we don't know what'll happen to the characters.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 05, 2009, 06:10:37 PM
No, it's like the film Titanic, we all know it's going to sink - but we don't know what'll happen to the characters.

now that's the one sappy chick flick i did like.

Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:15:27 PM
now that's the one sappy chick flick i did like.

Too scary for me.

S

really? i loved watching it go down and all the screaming and struggling and such. survival is always a good theme.
granted Leonardo Dicaprio was a little scary, but...

Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:22:54 PM
really? i loved watching it go down and all the screaming and struggling and such. survival is always a good theme.
granted Leonardo Dicaprio was a little scary, but...

You are so strong and macho, I'm in awe.

Your humble subject,
S

Quote from: Simone Louise on May 05, 2009, 06:35:11 PM
You are so strong and macho, I'm in awe.

Your humble subject,
S

lol it's a relatively tame disaster movie, but thanks for the compliment. 

Quote from: Nero on May 05, 2009, 06:37:06 PM
lol it's a relatively tame disaster movie, but thanks for the compliment. 

I frequently watch reruns of "Murder, She Wrote". Does that count?

S

Nero in ice water the average person lasts about 10 minutes and will be gasping for air.  In fact many will drown upon hitting the water as they gasp for air and breathe ice water.  Only in a movie is it that dramatic... but I liked the movie.  Tear-jerker movie.

Quote from: Nicky on May 05, 2009, 05:03:37 PM

I suspect you are right that some, but not all, TS folk stop because they are androgynes and don't know it. We actually have a few members here that transitioned fully then pulled back some of the way when they found it was not right for them.

Nicky,  I have a good memory.  I've had PM's with some of the folks that lived as a girl and then pulled back.

I discussed this thread with my wife as I walked the old neighbor's dog this evening.  She says I am an androgyne.  I said, "Two years ago you knew nothing about my gender issues."  She then replied but, "You never had limits on gender specific activities."

Do some androgynes that were born male want to be pretty and look like a girl?  I live as a guy to the world and my wife gets to see someone not guy.

I realize androgynes and transsexuals are different but I also believe society creates bounds and people fill every niche.  One of my shortcomings is that things need to be black and white and they can be explained.  I can not explain why I feel better doing what I do and it does not appear black or white.

It is sad that society is very narrow in their view of gender expression.

hi Wendy.
I think it's perfectly normal for an androgyne to want to be pretty. And girls aren't the only ones who can be pretty. And from what I've seen, it's perfectly normal for some androgynes to wish for a more female or more male appearance.