Quote from: GinaDouglas on May 14, 2009, 10:21:56 PM
No, I am not saying that.  I am simply seeing a choice between a full-size vagina and a realistic-appearing vulva, and stating my opinion that the former seems to make more sense for a transwoman who wants to have sex with men, and the latter seems to make more sense for a transwoman who wants to have sex with women; as well inferring logically that the former would seem to correlate more with a high sexuality modality, and the latter would seem to correlate more with a high sex modality.

Yet you stated that no surgery could make the vagina/vulva realistic enough to 'fool' a lesbian, so what would be the point of a semi-realistic vulva over a functional vagina? It wouldn't serve any purpose.
You're making a hypocrite of yourself

Quote from: Vexing on May 14, 2009, 10:33:48 PM
Yet you stated that no surgery could make the vagina/vulva realistic enough to 'fool' a lesbian, so what would be the point of a semi-realistic vulva over a functional vagina? It wouldn't serve any purpose.
You're making a hypocrite of yourself

I really think you are just being contrary and insulting at this point.

No, a neo-vagina cannot be realistic enough to fool a lesbian.  But that hardly means that a closer simultion would not be preferable.  That would be like saying that a styrofoam dildo is no different than a silicone one, since neither is a real penis.

Quote from: GinaDouglas on May 14, 2009, 11:37:16 PM
I really think you are just being contrary and insulting at this point.

Speculate all you like. I'm here for a rational debate.

QuoteNo, a neo-vagina cannot be realistic enough to fool a lesbian.  But that hardly means that a closer simultion would not be preferable.  That would be like saying that a styrofoam dildo is no different than a silicone one, since neither is a real penis.

What prohibits a transwoman from having BOTH depth and realism?
I've had a good look at a post-op vagina belonging to a friend and I was damn impressed.

Quote from: Vexing on May 15, 2009, 01:17:20 AM
What prohibits a transwoman from having BOTH depth and realism?

Several SRS surgeons, Reed and Bowers for example, have pictures of their finished products on their websites.  I presume these are examples of some of their best work.  I also offer the previously posted quote from Dr. Bowers.  While there has been a great deal of progress in the appearance area, there is still a great deal of progress to be made.

The WPATH website used to link to an article by Dr. Wilson, which was specifically about his attempts to create a realistic-looking clitoris (with pictures), in which he admitted his best work (pictures included) left "much to be desired."

So, evidently, the current state of surgical art is what "prohibits a transwoman from having both depth and realism."  Or perhaps realism at all, as I have seen no pictures of Bowers' modified surgery results.

So basically you're saying that current techniques produce the most realistic vulva possible, regardless of the depth?

Or, simply: you have to choose either depth or realism? Since when

In addition to the above reasons for wanting a full depth vagina:

I think that even a hard-core lesbian or asexual would have heard
about colovaginoplasty revisions to extend or restore depth to a vagina,
gulp and say, "What the heck, give me a full depth vagina, Doc."

The results on Bowers site are several years old (she admits as much) and are not representative of her current work. Also, at least one surgeon does create full labia, others can as well.


I'm curious, with so much variance between women down there, and how many women go looking that close, how many would see it and immediately know what they are seeing. I would think "I had a birth defect" would deflect any questions, if there was any.

Quote from: Vexing on May 15, 2009, 03:54:32 AM
So basically you're saying that current techniques produce the most realistic vulva possible, regardless of the depth?

Or, simply: you have to choose either depth or realism? Since when?

In the standard surgery, the majority of penile skin is used to line the interior of the vaginal cavity.  It is only logical that, with a smaller cavity, that would leave more skin available to produce features like the clitoral hood, labia majorum and labia minorum.

The answer I got from Dr. Bowers office:
Thank you for the email. I am happy to answer your questions.Dr. Bowers does perform a surgery that is similar to what you are interested in. We call it a "Partial" or "Modified" GRS. The same technique is used, so you should have a sensate clitoris. The external genitalia are created, but the vaginal cavity is very shallow. The outward appearance is that of a natal female, but there is not a vaginal cavity to speak of. The fee for this type of procedure is $16,500.I would be very happy to answer any further questions.Thanks again,Robin

While this seems to imply that the outward appearance of the modified surgery is better than that of the regular surgery, it does not say so explicitly.  You now have all the information I have.

Im truly intrigued what kind of SRS pictures have you been researching.

Correct me if im wrong, but arent you referring only to the penile skin inversion technique which requires a second step to define the labia?


I have seen recent 1 stage SRS pictures and they have well defined labia.

After reviewing the other thread and thinking on this, and the fact that it is being described as your "motivational ratio" for being trans, and my reply that

Quote from: FairyGirl on May 14, 2009, 06:07:49 PMmy Gender modality is actually a result of my Sex modality (i.e., I feel I am a woman, therefore I wish to live as a woman and have those life experiences) much more so than it is simply wanting to change my physical sex in order to live that way

And after seeing Janet Lynn's reply that

Quote from: Janet Lynn on May 14, 2009, 09:28:21 PMIn order to have the sexual experience I want to have, my body must be total female.

I have changed mine to Sex/Gender/Sexuality = 100/0/0

It seems in my case that everything ultimately stems from the Sex modality, regardless. I am MtF and plan to get SRS just as soon as I finish my RLE requirement. I cannot imagine doing any of this for the simple reasons given for either the Gender Modality or the Sexuality Modality. All my motivation comes from the fact of being a woman born into the wrong body, and the other things follow from that. For Sexuality, whether I'm with a man or a woman doesn't enter into it. I want to experience sex as a woman with either/or, and that's because I want to live as a woman (Gender) and that's because I am a woman (Sex).

Originally I thought that all I needed was to have my testicles and penis removed because I am sick of seeing them and want to relate to the world as a woman.  A vagina just seemed to be unnecessary.  But I was talking to a woman friend about this, saying I didn't expect to have vaginal intercourse.  She replied: You never know! 

So, if they are going to do the operation anyway they might as well build a vagina that can accept a penis or a woman's fingers.   You never know!

- Kate

I can't speak for everybody here, but I just want to be normal. Had I been born with a body to match my mind, I would have a "Normal vagina/labia".

Again, it has nothing to do with sex but for me its about becoming a whole woman. I don't want to transition into a woman with another birth defect. I've spent my entire life with a birth defect. I'm sick of it and I just want to be normal.

I may not be perfect or look perfect but it will be closer than I am now. A lot closer. Enough to stop me from going insane and slashing my wrists or laying down on the railroad tracks.

I've seen a lot of srs result pics on the web and I must say many of them are disheartening and look odd and scary. But many are taken while there is still a lot of swelling, and some are from doctors not as experienced as others. I have also seen some  SRS results right next to Natal Vagina's and you could NOT tell the difference. Not all women look like the girls in Hustler or Penthouse with pretty pink shaven genitals. There are some really gross looking Vagina's out there on Natal women.

You cannot assume all women look smell or feel normal. How many women suffer from vaginal dryness? How many women over smell while others have little to no odor?  There are variations in everything and everyone.

How many women are celebate? Or nuns? Or have never had sex? Who cares?

I get the feeling Gina you have made the assumption all TS are the same. We are all different. Just as there are girly girls, tomboys, dancers/cheerleaders, pole dancers or nuns. We are all different people. Trying to generalize is futile.

Quote from: Lori on May 16, 2009, 12:30:36 PM
I can't speak for everybody here, but I just want to be normal. Had I been born with a body to match my mind, I would have a "Normal vagina/labia".

Again, it has nothing to do with sex but for me its about becoming a whole woman. I don't want to transition into a woman with another birth defect. I've spent my entire life with a birth defect. I'm sick of it and I just want to be normal.

I may not be perfect or look perfect but it will be closer than I am now. A lot closer. Enough to stop me from going insane and slashing my wrists or laying down on the railroad tracks.

...

I get the feeling Gina you have made the assumption all TS are the same. We are all different. Just as there are girly girls, tomboys, dancers/cheerleaders, pole dancers or nuns. We are all different people. Trying to generalize is futile.

I'm in agreement with Lori in all of the particulars I quoted above.

And particularly, Gina, in her view about the assumptions your study seems founded on. As I said, you shouldn't exclude your own experience; but like us all you have no other experience to use as a baseline when you first start. Surely by now you have read of others that "defy" what you've been calling "logical." Those notions may be logical to you, but then, so are/were the of Blanchard.Kurt Freund to themselves and to others.

At some point if you're going to do a meaningful research on TS motivation  I think as in any social science research you're gonna have to weight for falsification and go with what the transitioners say. Otherwise, like the above-named individuals, you'll be forced to dismiss anything you don't find personally "logical" as being a "lie."

I have a seven year relationship with my partner. As we have a romantic relationship that began after transition it's not a "husband" wife relationship and never was. In fact, she approached me. (small brag, I guess ) Thus, I identify as lesbian when asked, because I am I a long term reationship with another woman.

I've had sexual relations with men for long stretches of my life and sex with women as well in my life. So I tend to think of myself as "bisexual" when I have to accept an orientation label. But, none of that do I perceive within myself as having anything at all to do with my motivations to transition. Like Lori, that was driven entirely, or as best I can define it, anyhow, entirely based on my internal dissonance between my brain-sex and my body-sex.

After many unsucessful attempts to change brain-sex, I transitioned my body and am very content with exactly that. I love having sexual relations, I love living the life or just another woamn in USA. So both your gender and your sexuality designators come into play for me.

But like Lori I find that my life was composed of sex-dissonance prior to transition. That's the kernel and is the source from which those other two streams flow.

Thanks, Lori. Your excellent post was the nudge that tipped me into an explanation I hadn't quite been able to fasten onto for this thread.

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on May 16, 2009, 01:40:53 PMBut, none of that do I perceive within myself as having anything at all to do with my motivations to transition. Like Lori, that was driven entirely, or as best I can define it, anyhow, entirely based on my internal dissonance between my brain-sex and my body-sex.

That's what I was saying exactly. For me it's all about the incongruity between mind and body: Everything I do is motivated by that, including anything else that could be defined under "gender" or "sexuality". I think this is making distinctions where none exist.