My mother picked me up from work last night, and we were listening to the radio on our way home. Right before we got home, she turned up the radio cause her favorite line in the song was about to come on. The song was religious (not the name of the song) and it said Jesus paid a price way to high. When the song was off, me being me asked a simple question: "How can you call it a sacrifice when you come back to life 3 days later and become the right hand of god?"
And it caused a massive fight between myself, my mother and my father, which ended in my father calling my a crossdresser and my mother agreeing while I'm crying. They believe in a fairy tale, and I'm sorry to anyone on here that believes in a religion, but I can not, and will not show respect for said religion. I love my mother and father to death, and I try really REALLY hard to show them respect (though I get none back) but I will never respect religion.

Well you did ask the question and as it seems your parents are very religious, the response shouldn't have been a surprise.  You challenged their faith and put them on the defensive.  There may have been a better way to phrase the question.

But then I'm a combative b--ch so who am I to talk

-={LR}=-

Actually, Carolyn has a valid point. How can that be considered a sacrifice? But alas such talk is not for this forum. You certainly have a high tolerance Carolyn.. if I were subjected to such abuse.. well, its best not to talk about such things.. But emotional/verbal abuse, while painful(often times more so than physical) its not the same level as physical. And it seems to me if someone would call there own daughter a cross dresser because of her unfortunate circumstances, that physical abuse would not be far behind.

I totally agree with you. I do not believe in any religion with contradicts itself all the way through.

Religion is what causes 99.9% so the problems in this world.

Prove to me he existed then I would believe, but there are no actual facts.

Jay

Yeah, it's best to discuss religion with people who have been involved in the more academic side of their faith.  Most good clergy will sit down and debate bible with you, as will practically anyone who's taken a theology class.  Debate with them, not your Jesus-lovin' mom.

 

QuoteI agree 100% with you, Jay. However, I don't bother debating with religious people because often times it's like talking to a brick wall. They believe what they believe and no amount of counterpoint will change their minds.

Exactly. also, there's another reason i don't tend to argue with religious fanatics. It's dangerous. think about it. these people BELIEVE this stuff. And human nature is very stubborn. Face it, we as a species like what we like, believe what we believe and if something comes along and challenges that, most of us will react violently. And that's coming off a religion so chock full of depraved sadistic lunacy its not funny. Anyway, Ive said my piece, didn't wanna get into a rant but meh.

Carolyn,
Perhaps look at it like this, regardless of how you feel on the subject they are trying. They hold those beliefs very dear and to be honest, isn't it polite to respect other people's feelings and belief?

More to the point of religion in particular, personally I understand why people believe so vehemently for the most part, but in the same I do not, I love Jesus very dear for reasons that have nothing to do with human religion.

Quote from: Jay on May 27, 2009, 02:08:11 PM
Prove to me he existed then I would believe, but there are no actual facts.

Would you accept that it was proven to me beyond any doubt and that I am a logical person? An that I was a pretty vehement unbeliever and could not understand before. ^*shrug*

I don't tend to debate religion, largely because it becomes rational vs irrational.  No one can get very far that way.

I don't know that I really respect religious beliefs either.  I just don't care what other people believe unless they try to push it on me.

Quote from: Carolyn on May 27, 2009, 12:09:26 PM
I love my mother and father to death, and I try really REALLY hard to show them respect (though I get none back) but I will never respect religion.

I was not going to comment on this as it is a potentially explosive subject, but the more I thought about it, the more I felt the need to say something.


Respect - deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment.

Accept -  to regard as normal, suitable, or usual.
...... or -  to receive as to meaning; understand.

Acknowledge - to show or express recognition or realization of

Agree - to have the same views, emotions, etc.; harmonize in opinion or feeling

Condone - to give tacit approval to


Respect is a two way street.  You are not given respect it is earned.  If you refuse to respect a facet of a person's life that they view as important or essential, then you cannot expect these same people to respect certain facets of your life.

If your parents are highly religious they may not condone or agree with your decisions, but they seem to have some level of love and respect for you or they would have completely cut ties with you.  They may choose to not accept your choices, but they seem to acknowledge your right to make them.

You do not have to condone or agree with your parents' religious or life style choices, but if you do not acknowledge the differences in opinion and respect their right to hold those opinions there will always be a wedge driving you apart.  You are capable of showing respect for their beliefs and the dedication it takes to live within those beliefs without agreeing with them, or accepting them as your beliefs.

Jay stated that 00.0% of the worlds problems are caused by religion.  I disagree.  I believe most problems are caused by people who want others to understand, condone, accept and respect their point of view yet they are not willing to give the same understanding, acceptance and respect to the opposite point of view ... It is difficult, but it is possible.

Good luck, I hope things get better for you.

I have been thinking about things, and I have made this choice, but before I tell you all my choice I must say thanks for the comments.
When it comes to my mother, I will show her respect, by trying to not auger with her.
But when it comes to my father, I've got nothing left, as far as I'm conversed I don't want him in my life anymore. All my life he has been nothing but one pain after another both Physically and Mentally, so yea, to hell with him. He wasn't there when I was born, nor when I was growing up, he has never showed me respect, he claimed I have no morals, I'm just done with him.

Im no fan of religious dogma either, but seems to me that sometimes the anti-religious folks tend to be as dogmatic about hating religion as their religious counterparts. I really dont care either way, and if someone wants to worship one god, many gods, a table lamp, howard stern... matters not to me. My beliefs are not validated by others.. if they choose to believe Im going to hell... good for them. But I dont feel anger for those that choose to believe...

Its also too easy to confuse religion and faith and spirituality. Often the three are diametrically opposed in the way people behave and act. They often confuse the three, and if you engage them in a topic that they are passionate about, stands to reason you should expect some blowback.

Which is why in general I dont engage people... nor do I get into my personal beliefs.

Unless someone wants to talk about the church of the subgenius... 

Quote from: Laura91 on May 27, 2009, 02:33:19 PM
I agree 100% with you, Jay. However, I don't bother debating with religious people because often times it's like talking to a brick wall. They believe what they believe and no amount of counterpoint will change their minds.

I believe that's the definition of a religion: An unshakable belief in something, no matter what evidence you see to the contrary.

If, on the other hand, someone says, "I believe in X, but if I see Y, I'll stop believing," then it's science, not religion. Science has falsifiable hypotheses. Religion doesn't.

Incidentally, by that definition, mathematics is a religion, not a science -- as any mathematician will happily tell you.

My most valuable high school course was geometry. That's where I learned the difference between axioms and theorems. And I learned that you can argue with someone about their theorems, but it's utterly pointless to argue about their axioms. So if (for example) someone accepts as an axiom that every word in the King James Bible is literal truth ... well, don't bother arguing about evolution.

Yeah, yeah ... underneath the dress and heels and makeup, I'm still a nerd.

I think I have spent some alot time hoping that people in my life understand and accept me even though they don't understand me.

Just that fact alone makes it almost impossible for me not to keep an open mind when it comes to other peoples beleifs even though I do not understand or agree. I wouldn't even mind listening to them especially if they were my elders.

I'm sorry to say I think I see what happened here you hit them with a big flaw in what they be leave and they returned the favor.


Sincerely
Kristina

I doubt that even with the most pleasant phrasing you can get past a central fact - you either believe it, or you don't.  There is a huge gulf between those two positions, and its all but impossible to cross it.  You believe, or you don't.

Either there is a kind and loving god, a divinity that shapes our ends and truly cares about each and every one of us, and our every action (while also managing the rest of the universe), or... it's all poppycock, a myth promoted because it worked well to generate money and/or power for a select group of people.

Quote from: KaiTheLast on May 27, 2009, 01:40:50 PM
Actually, Carolyn has a valid point. How can that be considered a sacrifice? But alas such talk is not for this forum. You certainly have a high tolerance Carolyn.. if I were subjected to such abuse.. well, its best not to talk about such things.. But emotional/verbal abuse, while painful(often times more so than physical) its not the same level as physical. And it seems to me if someone would call there own daughter a cross dresser because of her unfortunate circumstances, that physical abuse would not be far behind.

Going from calling someone a name to physically abusing the person when there is no history of abuse is a big leap.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen - often before we CAN physically abuse someone we'd have to de-humanize them which often entails name-calling, but that process takes time generally.  The father obviously was willing to 'debate' the subject - someone who resorts to physical abuse typically doesn't waste the time debating.