Quote from: Rafe on August 05, 2006, 01:35:57 PM
Okay, here you girls go, an opinion from the other end. Being an FtM, I started out figuring I was a lesbian, because I didn't think the process of going through hormone therapy, etc was as acceptable as I have now found it to be. I spent a year hanging around the only lesbian bar in town, and met my 2 best friends there--- one is a bisexual chick with whom I had a brief relationship, the other is a lesbian who was in love with me until she kissed me and realized what I had already known: there was absolutely no chemistry there. Actually, the only woman I've ever slept with was a lesbian, but that ended badly... no need to say much more.

However, since I have come out as TS, lesbians no longer want me. I was always what people might consider "butch" (because, despite the labels, I was always FtM), but now, they're not interested. I don't know if it's the thing about my having a predominantly masculine personality, or the fact that I'm not interested in the same type of sex they have (as opposed to typical male-on-female). Now, I've never been incredibly attracted to lesbians, mostly because of the sex thing and the fact many tend to appear very masculine (and I'm predominantly attracted to very feminine women), but it seems odd to me that they would reject an MtF because she was once a man, but also an FtM because he does not consider himself female, though he still has the parts. For me, it's little loss, because I prefer the straight chicks anyway, but it seems pretty paradoxical.

And as a straight man, whom some might call a lesbian because of my current problems with, well, those pesky female parts, I would have no compunctions about dating an MtF. For me, it's the inside that counts.

Rafe

Rafe, when I first started seeing a therapist I found out she was lesbian.  I couldn't imagine ever wanting to be physical with a guy so I asked her if the lesbian comminity would accept me.  She replied honestly and said the chances are slim even though she told me she felt I will be able to pass.  Looking back she may have been speaking personally, knowing I'm a genetic male.

I have had close lesbian friends.  One girl and I were everything but lovers.  But she just couldn't see me as anything but a guy.  And she once told me, pointing to my crotch, "You'd better not cut that thing off!" as if she would be disgusted with me if I did.

Last night I was at a lesbian club and dancing with this little hottie.  She grabbed my boobs and found they are real.  She sort of looked turned off.  I realized then she knew I was genetically male.  When I told her I was TS and would be changing that she gave me a disgusted look, like I was crazy.  We kept dancing for some time after that but initially she didn't react well.

Being gay or lesbian doesn't mean they understand transsexuals.  Ours is a very different world from theirs.  We want to change our genitals and live full time in the gender opposite from the one we were born in.  That's pretty hard for non TSs to understand, even gays and lesbians.  But it is interesting I haven't gotten as negative a reaction from gay men.  It's more like "geez, what a waste".

The way I see it, if somebody can't look past your genitals or history, they aren't open-minded enough to be worth even considering.  We're wonderful people and those kind of people really don't deserve us.

Melissa

Melissa, I agree we're wonderful people with incredible strength but I won't cast off people who are uneducated about who we are and why we want to live like we do.  I have 'converted' so many people just by being myself and showing them what I'm all about.  There are a few gay guys who once wanted nothing to do with TGs and now we're great friends.  Every time they see me I see a big smile and get a warm hug.  The same goes for lesbians and even straight girls.  I know they don't understand transsexualism but they want me in their life.

However, I won't keep people in my life who refuse to accept me for who I am.  The one lesbian I mentioned earlier, I feel partly responsible for her attitude as I found myself acting very much the man in the relationship.  This was because of my upbringing, not because I wanted to be the man.  I believed if you want a woman to be attracted to you act like a man.  Sort of like buying cute girls drinks.

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 06, 2006, 03:11:21 PM


Being gay or lesbian doesn't mean they understand transsexuals.  Ours is a very different world from theirs.  We want to change our genitals and live full time in the gender opposite from the one we were born in.  That's pretty hard for non TSs to understand, even gays and lesbians. 

4 me  Is eazy to be nuts about a lesbian also is eazy to behave in a way that she preffers, i love being  flexible.  With men the code of behavior narrows considerably.
 
  I have cought myself being a gentleman in the company of a lesbian  if am attracted to her, later realized that i was just being a lesbian,  we are a very diverse group.  But i can't predict that first impression: what will turn her on?  a guy in drag, a femme TS, A girl with male genitalia, a born male with Female genitalia      I know a clique of lesbians that is made  of virgin lesbians never being touch by a guy, they have a strict code about it (... yes i know  that it is the mind what really matters however turn ons are subconscious)

  yep, ... well you get the idea. But this is a different subject from this thread.

sheila18

Hey, if lesbians were really turned off by male behaviors like chivalry, then how could there be so many butch lesbians with girlfriends? I've seen numerous lesbians behave very masculine toward other lesbians, and be well-received. Apparently, a lot of them are really more concerned with what's in your pants than how you act toward them. I don't know exactly why this is... I'll have to ask my friend when I talk to her next, see if she can enlighten me. Many lesbians, however, seem to feel that because they are attracted solely to women, they can't imagine even associating with men, and anything that might remind them of men turns them off. Of course, that still doesn't explain the whole butch thing...

In any case, Julie and Melissa are totally right. All of us are wonderful people, and if someone can't see us for who we are inside instead of focusing on arbitrary physical features, they're not worth our time.

Rafe

Orientation wise there are three types of women.

#1 hetero
#2 bisexual
#3 lesbian

A lesbian may be attracted to a person of the same gender or gender presentation.  That does not mean they are physically attracted.  A lesbian sleeps with a person of the same sex. 

Quotesome lesbians i know are turned off by any sign of maleness they say, however whenever a very attractive and fit hot guy swows up (specially in a bike ... or stimulants) they end up in bed with ..

If they sleep with a man or men then they are bi not lesbian. 

Quote
The way I see it, if somebody can't look past your genitals or history, they aren't open-minded enough to be worth even considering.

Would you sleep with a person that you did not find physically attractive?  It has never happened and it never will but I could never sleep with a pre op simply because the genitals are wrong.  I have been and am friends with a few pre's but thats it.  Our relationships might involve different dynamics, just friends power exchange

QuoteHey, if lesbians were really turned off by male behaviors like chivalry, then how could there be so many butch lesbians with girlfriends? I've seen numerous lesbians behave very masculine toward other lesbians, and be well-received. Apparently, a lot of them are really more concerned with what's in your pants than how you act toward them.

There is a huge difference between masculine appearence/demeanor and masculine identified.  There are multi thousands of natal str8 women who have these attributes and have no desire to be seen as men or transition.  That is simply who they are.  The same applies to a lesbian who breaks the gender role sterotype by presenting the same way.  Watch the movie If these walls could talk II.  In it there is a scene where 4 lesbians go to a bar that is populated by what was then called bull dykes or bull daggers.  Today they are butches or stone butches.

To the men, would you rather a lesbian slept with you because your sex is right or not sleep with you and validate your gender?

Leigh

Fortunately and unfortunately, I have always taken a female apporach to relationships.  I say unfortunately, because living as a guy, this sucked.  I had only had 3 relationships prior to meeting my wife  here's how all 4 started:
1. She had a crush on me and wasn't afraid to show it
2. We just met at a 4th of July party and were hanging out and things just happened.  Good chemistry I think and also my first love.
3. I was introduced to her because our mom's knew each other.
4. I was friends for about a year with my wife before we ever talked about getting into a relationship.

As you can see, I've never taken the typical guy approach and just hit on a girl.  Now I say fortunately, because living as a woman from now on, I don't have any adjustment to do.

Melissa

rafe:
   I agree totally with you Rafe and Julie, the point I was trying to make was that what we think we are and how we behave are not always the same  even for wonderful people like us.  This can be baffling to people who listen and pay attention to what they say (those who meditate soon discover it soon enough), I thought that i liked redheads why am i atracted to blah blah ...    That is how i took this thread to point to, to put it succintly : " Am i the only one who feel like this ... "  , a valid question and questions and sharing are the basis for this forum and i feel it does not desrve to be shot down with a response like: "...There are multi thousands of natal str8 women who have these attributes and have no desire to be seen as men or transition.  That is simply who they are."
  i feel this is a forum not a classrom and if anyone feels like chastising or lecturing to a post that should belong to a catholic classroom.

   The thread under discussion is about being nuts about a lesbian (Not a lecture on types of women)  which suggests the old question that non-transgendered people ask:  does it make sense for someone to transition from male to female when you are attracted to females, wouldn't a woman preffer to be with a male?  thre are logical answers and actions from the heart which reminds me of

     there is a thread out there very funny where  the head says this and the heart says another.  ...we TG's are used to taking the plunge logical or not.
   Finally I believe that some of us come together into this forum to discover and share our experiece, for me this has been a gift to meet and connect with people that identify with me and viceversa, I enjoy comming here is fun so far ...is not fun to read someone demeaning another or their posts.

love and respect no matter what (specially yourself), sheila18

is beyond intellect

Quote from: sheila18 on August 07, 2006, 09:57:04 AM
rafe:
which suggests the old question that non-transgendered people ask:  does it make sense for someone to transition from male to female when you are attracted to females, wouldn't a woman preffer to be with a male?

And a very valid question; one that kept me from transitioning for a long time.  I thought I would have to be with men if I lived as a female.  However, I now have a good answer.  I was never able to fill the male role that straight women desire.  The matter of identity became so strong that who I was attracted to didn't matter anymore. As a woman, I can be myself, rather than acting and trying to be somebody that a person I'm attracted to wants.

Melissa

Quote from: Leigh on August 07, 2006, 12:52:35 AM
There is a huge difference between masculine appearence/demeanor and masculine identified. 

And I believe many lesbians can tell the difference. This is probably why most of the women I've been with were bi.
Whenever I'd be having drinks with a lesbian, she'd be into me at first, but after we'd talked some, I could tell she was no longer feeling me, and next thing I knew she'd be walking out the door with a really masculine butch.
I don't think they recognized that I was FTM, I just gave off a male vibe somehow.

Quote from: Leigh on August 07, 2006, 12:52:35 AM


To the men, would you rather a lesbian slept with you because your sex is right or not sleep with you and validate your gender?

If I was attracted to her, I'd sleep with her, but I wouldn't see her again if she saw me as female.
So, yes, it would bother me.

Nero

Quote from: Nero on August 07, 2006, 10:44:13 AM

Quote from: Leigh on August 07, 2006, 12:52:35 AM
To the men, would you rather a lesbian slept with you because your sex is right or not sleep with you and validate your gender?

If I was attracted to her, I'd sleep with her...

Ha ha.  That's what I'd expect a guy to say.

Melissa

I figure I'm attracted to who I'm attracted to. Most have been straight and bisexual chicks in the past, but I don't rule anyone out. If they're not attracted to me, though, I often lose interest. No sense in fighting for something that just won't happen.

Rafe

Quote from: Rafe on August 07, 2006, 01:19:11 PM
If they're not attracted to me, though, I often lose interest. No sense in fighting for something that just won't happen.

Rafe

Oh, but that's when I really get interested. Pursue and conquer.

Nero

Quote from: sheila18 on August 07, 2006, 09:57:04 AMthe old question that non-transgendered people ask:  does it make sense for someone to transition from male to female when you are attracted to females, wouldn't a woman preffer to be with a male?

My answer would be that the dynamic in a straight relationship is vastly different than that in a same sex relationship.

(Edited for rephrasing.)

My response is that they are confusing the social construct of gender with the biological construct of sex.

Quote from: Tinkerbell on August 08, 2006, 07:27:15 PM
What I said on that post was that it could be possible to feel some attraction for a female; however, that female would have to be extremely masculine or look like a man in order for me to feel any sexual attraction;  now that I think about it, yes I could feel some sexual attraction for a woman with those characteristics, but that is all (only attraction ) it does not mean I would have an intimate experience with her, that would be totally out of the question 

What about pre-op MTFs?

Melissa

Just curious.

Melissa