But, Stephanie, what has religion to do with God?

-Celia

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on June 27, 2006, 08:56:59 PM
The religious right is very wrong.

Gotta love it

Almost all the violence you mention is really caused by the monotheistic religions. It's inevitable when you have the One Truth, and focus on the trivia of  facts and history rather than meaning and wisdom.

It's interesting that if you put a siberian shaman, wiccan priestess, austrailian aborigine, american indian, eskimo, african vodoun priest, etc. into one room... they'd all be best pals within minutes. They'd know what they MEANT was more important than what they SAID. It's all about the meaning and lessons the words represent and try to illustrate, and not how to spell them.

Kate   I luv ya - but I reckon you are saying what you would prefer to believe rather than what is.

It almost sounds like one of those jokes :

Like as   "There was an Indian, an aborigine, a voudon priest and an eskimo in this room and in flys a blowfly.  The Indian bats it away, the Aborigine bats it away, the vodoun priest says "hey stay away from that vat of fresh chicken blood", and the eskimo says " You don't often see many flies in here"
To which the fly replys "I'm bloody well not surprised at the temperature you......^{I know, needs more work}

Meanwhile, in the next room the Dali Lama, The Pope, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the Chief Rabbi were discussing theology.

Dali Lama " Sons of Abraham huh! Three Stooges more likely, lets see you talk B/s now with a crushed windpipe.....Haiyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Hah"  {Executes a perfect origame kick}

The Pope "My Crozier serves as a nifty disembowelling tool - take that the lot of you, hope you get reincarnated as banana slugs" {swiiiish thunk}

The Grand Mufti "Infidels!!!!  I will have you know my turban is packed with Semtex, let this be a lesson to you" {presses detonator}  "wait,  what have I overlooked he..."  {KABOOOOOM}

The Chief Rabbi was unable to add to the discussion being disemboweled with a crushed windpipe and scattered across a couple of hectares.

Meanwhile,  in the garden outside the Primate of the Anglican Church swings thru the trees eating a banana  "ook ook ook....  iik iik iik"

My contribution to this thread

Rana

Teri Anne:

  You wrote: "Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE."

Bottom line.  & am  not interested in anyone's opinion on this, thanks but no thanks!

  Teri Anne the reason Why I believe is because I had A Spiritual Experience and God as you choose to call it revealed his divinity and nature to me during a Vision Quest, Teri Anne. That experinced wiped out any lilngering doubts of smaller experiences. Wheather anyone chooses to bellieve it or not is none of my business and I do not want to know. Dhyana(Zen) meditation experiences also have revealed this Great Mystery. If you need more info please contact me on a 1 to 1.

Love, no matter what, Sheila

I simply believe in GOD because there are so many things in this universe NONE OF US can explain or comprehend.

Chynna

Plus the fact he has a book...I think thats cool

August 2, 2006

Dear fellow Susanites,
Just a short note to let you'all know that, if I don't respond, it's because I'm without an internet connection (unless I go over to the library).  I've been thinking my place would sell soon so haven't had a regular phone (and thus, internet connection).

I'm amazed at the amount of posts to this topic -- I guess this topic, like it has with me, been important to you'all.  I appreciate all the great thoughts, experiences, insights and sharing that everyone has done.  Unfortunately, I'm still, despite my lifetime of trying, never the "spiritual experience" that many of you have experienced...It would, of course, give resolution to this lifelong query and search for "faith."  Regardless, I still, deep in my heart, feel that Something or Someone is out there that created this extraordinarily complex and beautiful world and universe.

Thank you again for trying to help in my spiritual quest.

Teri Anne

Nice to hear from you again Teri.
Was wondering what happen to you.
Glad it wasn't anything serous.
Hope your place sell. And you can get a new internet connection.
I really miss not have you around. You have made me really stop and think more than once.

Back to the topic:

I concure with my sister Chynna. The way everything is put together from the environment to ourselves. It is just so ...so marvolus, so intricic, so complex, so interwoven.  It couldn't have just happened.
Anyway that's the way I see it.

Come back soon Teri Anne.

Jillieann

QuoteYOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

No matter the stance you take, it is a belief, because noone can possibly know for certain.
If you belief nothing happens and we are all here by happenstance, that is a belief.
It's like if I say, there is this food, that noone alive has ever tasted, it's like, debating over what you think that food tastes like, no matter the answer given, it's a belief.

Regardless of your answer to the question, why do you believe, the answer itself, will be a belief of some sort.  Agnostic's being an exception to this because the agnostic simply says, "I don't know." which, I suppose, is really the only non-belief based answer.

As far as, "why do I believe the things that I do" ?

If I was a christian, I am automatically damned, no matter what, according to how I interpret the scriptures.  Furthermore, if you live for an eternity in heaven or hell, eventually it would be meaningless. Take your favorite thing to do, can you imagine doing it for an eternity? Take 100 things, can you imagine doing those? No matter how many things you do, eventually, after an infinite period of time, you would be bored, and since we are talking an infinite period of time, you would be infinitely bored.  Furthermore, punishment is meant to be a deterent, it is meant to change behavior. Punishment for an eternity, with no chance to change your behavior is not punishment, it's torture.

If I was a buddhist entirely, it would lead to moral relativism. I believe in distinct right and wrong, and I do not think I could sit by as someone was being beaten to death and say, "Well, that's just Karma at work, and I don't want to get my Karma involved"

If I was Jewish, I would be really mad, because, for 'the chosen people of God' they take a LOT of flak in the world. That and I would definately feel like God had abondoned me.

If I was an atheist I would absolutely, with certainty, die by my own hand. The part of me that wants to live looks to those beliefs, looks for validation of those beliefs, and screams, hollars, and yells when I even look at the possibility that we're just here by happenstance, and I can't get that part of me to shut up.

The result of all of this is that
1. I believe in a loving God, and there must be a reason for being here (see why I am not an atheist).

2. I believe kindness to others is important because I want people to be kind to me.

3. I believe that being loving and accepting to others is important because I want people to be loving and accepting towards me.

4. I believe in reincarnation (see why I am not a christian).  It explains some things

Interestingly, the bible comes very close to providing reasons for 1, 2, and 3.
Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul.
Love they neighbors as thyself.
From these, all the commandments and laws of the prophets are built.

Most of the rest of it (in my opinion) would better serve the world in a fireplace to heat homes. But those sentences, I think are absolutely vital.

Sorry for the long answer, it's why I believe the way I do.

Hi Jessica,

   I understand what you mean when you say that doing something you love forever and ever would become boring. I don't think there is the concept of 'time' in paradise. I think it would be like the 'Nexus' in the Star Trek Generations movie. You would be experiencing happy moments over and over, but you wouldn't necessarily be aware of time passing. I hate to reference Star Trek again, but on Deep Space Nine, the creatures who lived in the worm hole thought that time was a concept necessary to low level thinking linear Beings (or something like that). So, maybe boredom would not be a problem.

   Hopefully, God would spare everyone the concept of time so that as you eat your 255,497,584,018'th pancake, you would only be aware that you are eating a pancake and are happy and joyous.

   I'm coming down on the side of God existing within each individual. Kind of a wholeness of spirit, body, and mind. I also think you can tell when a person is separate from God.

   Not everyone is aware that God is with them and that is okay because God is translucent, selfless, undemanding, integrated, and unconditional. God is not necessarily mean, however, God expects us to take care of ourselves.

   Concerning Buddhism, there are some branches that believe action is required on the part of the individual.  Buddhism is not necessarily sticking your head in the sand.
   Concerning Judaism, I don't think that Jews need to feel abandonded by thier God. Nothing is easy in life, and over the long haul, things even out. Sometimes people need challenges in order to continue growing and to become self sufficient. I'm not saying that tragedies are good, however, overcoming tragedies is good. Also, there is a deep vein of humor that runs throughout the Jewish communities (from what I can see), and I believe that God supplies humor.
   Concerning Christianity, in my opinion it died with Christ. I love Jesus and the ideas she represents (I believe Jesus was Transgendered), but I cannot follow any of the weird reasoning of many Christian churches. I follow Jesus, but not the Church. However, Jesus is a teacher and not a God. God is God.

   I hope this response is more of a contribution to the discussion than my previous one. I believe that God is represented by many concepts and that individuals are free to choose (or not) the images and ideas that will fit them best and still allow them to grow.


Becky
_{(peering out from behind God's skirt)}

Im a logical, realistic woman
(witth a twisted sense of vulgar humor anyway)
at heart and I had a HS teacher who once told us and Cindi correct me cause ill probably get the measurements wrong. But the nearest star systems to our own solar system is 4.? Light years away. and it takes light 8 minutes to travel from our sun to our planet 8 minutes mind you around 93 million miles....Now if you took that distance and shrunk it so the earth would only be 1 inch away from the sun our NEAREST star system and there are thousands if not millions would still be ruffly 1.8 miles away from us!
So your telling me in a universe as vastly enourmous as that that a supremebeing doesn't exist come on now! Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Chynna

Chynna, close enough. There is a lot of space out there and billions of planets.  Since the amino acids, the building blocks of life, are found EVERYWHERE in the universe, it is quite unconceivable that life itself does not exist everywhere.

I wrote a piece on our society's favored religious text.   I'll post it in the chronicles blog for everyone to look at.

I think that the bottom line is this.  You can cite scripture to support just about any opinion. Christ's message was "love thy neighbor".  Upon this commandment were all the others predicated. 

So, "love thy neighbor" doesn't say "love thy neighbor as long as <fill in the blank>"

God ceases to be God when he/she becomes the master of guilt and you are the slave.  God inspires and lifts you up.  Accept that love and inspiration.  Break your bonds of shame and guilt to enjoy your life as you were created to do.

Cindi

Quote from: Chynna on August 08, 2006, 05:29:52 PM
Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Spock would not see the logic in this.

I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

Quote from: Jessica on August 08, 2006, 01:24:54 PM

QuoteYOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

No matter the stance you take, it is a belief, because noone can possibly know for certain.
If you belief nothing happens and we are all here by happenstance, that is a belief.

Jessica:
  I like what you have to say and find several points of agreement because you are tapping on the glass ceiling and seems that you sense that the tools to get out of this conundrum of a box are part of the box, sort of like living in a blue world and suspecting that there might be someething like another color or lack of  it but all the tools that you have to analyse it are in blue and mede of blue, I used to believe in blue because i was conditioned to do so (stochoma, excuse the spelling) until i saw red 
perhaps you missed my post or i did not communicated the idea clearly enough ...
The god, Great Mystery, Great Architect of the Universe, Creator,  blah   is not a belief for me, is a reality based on fact.  A personal experience.
  I am speaking for me only and am not interested in converting any one or being logical, is a waste of time.
   The original question from the thread was simple:
" WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I'd love it if it could be something more than, "I turned to Him in that time of woe and He was there for me."  Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE. "


  In my case, before my experience i believed because i was educated and conditioned to believe, now i do not believe  still, I know but that is another story.
love no matter what, sheila18 

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2006, 09:55:01 PM

Quote from: Chynna on August 08, 2006, 05:29:52 PM
Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Spock would not see the logic in this.

I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

That's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa

melissa:
nicely done 
sh18

Quote from: sheila18 on August 09, 2006, 12:31:54 AM
melissa:
nicely done 
sh18

I agree.  Logic has no place in religion.  Science and Religion are polar opposites for some reason.

I know that they are very religious people... they keep telling me how I should live my own life. 

Cindi

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2006, 09:55:01 PM
I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

I was a little apprehensive about reply but here it goes,
If I can use logic then one should use common sense (not saying you didn't) in making there logical conclusions thus, If an individual is lactose intolerant then the ice cream would not be better than nothing..

So the statement being as simple and elusive as it is is highly inaccurate depending on the factors which one is left to assume!

QuoteThat's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa,
Your assuming in that statement that strength is dictated by muscle mass or the amount of power and or force one can exert!
Misconception in yet another simple and elusive statement the leaves the reader to assume certain factors that are not clearly defined
Strength in itself can be definable in a number of different ways

By not lifting weights I submit to you I have become stronger!!!

By accepting my body in its current state and muscle mass and not lifting weights to achieve a different body I have gained acceptance and confidence with my own body.therefore became stronger mentally.
Good point right!

Out of the box thinking....Proof and logic has a margin for error or the unknown simply because of the universal constant that Nothing is 100%
Therefore to be logical or have proof of anything you must Factor in that margin of error for the unknown.

QuoteI agree.  Logic has no place in religion.  Science and Religion are polar opposites for some reason.

MMM.... Was not GOD logical according to th book of Gen. ? he had a plan he laid out the plan and excuted the plan insteps seeing the results of each action and seeing "It was good" so if he was indeed logical then logic would have a place in religion...another point can we not find science in the Bible? Noah built AN ARK 50 cubits wide and 300 cubits long (i believe) measurements sounds like science in religion from my end of the laptop besides polar opposites tend to attract each other if you get my drift!

Quote from: Chynna on August 09, 2006, 10:31:42 AM

QuoteThat's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa,
Your assuming in that statement that strength is dictated by muscle mass or the amount of power and or force one can exert!
Misconception in yet another simple and elusive statement the leaves the reader to assume certain factors that are not clearly defined
Strength in itself can be definable in a number of different ways

By not lifting weights I submit to you I have become stronger!!!

By accepting my body in its current state and muscle mass and not lifting weights to achieve a different body I have gained acceptance and confidence with my own body.therefore became stronger mentally.
Good point right!

Out of the box thinking....Proof and logic has a margin for error or the unknown simply because of the universal constant that Nothing is 100%
Therefore to be logical or have proof of anything you must Factor in that margin of error for the unknown.

Chynna, I actually found that on the internet a while ago and just remembered it because I found it interesting.  It's not something I came up with.  But it does demonstrate flawed logic, because you are forced to think in other ways to make any sense of it.

Melissa

   Interesting discussion I hope at the end of this we respect and admire each other more than before otherwise ... 
  Yes, the logic of the example is flawed because the silogisms used to build it are not correct, we all make mistakes and  i don't want to lecture on logic and siogisms (check the wiki if you like) but the discussion itself reveals that no mater how logically or how Zen like kensho insight we use it comes down to conditioning. The thread uses the word Myth  (I love J. Campbell's The Power of Myth)
I remember this in the foreword of a logic book this actually happened to the author who is jewish while at a dinner party (1970's?) he met a colleague of Palestinian nationality and talked about Palestine and how to solve the problem logically.
  The Palestinian Professor asked:  if you were in a sinking cruise ship-liner and you could only rescue either your mother, your wife or your daughter who would you choose to rescue?
  The book author answered without hesitation, " my daughter of course, she is the reason why we struggle and represents our future"
  "wrong" answered the  professor   "the right answer is your mother,   you can always have another wife you can always have more daughters but you can only have one mother"   
...different conditioning   So many religions and so many sects within them.
  I was born into a catholic religion and there were different opinions about the bible, then I checked out LDS and did they have another opinion about JC, then i got saved into a fundamentalist Christian group wow that was totally different, well one evening while in base some Christian people decided to form a group to study the bible, what a disaster, nobody could agree on something as simple as to what salvation is ( please spare me your opinion I know you're right   )  we all were taught,read conditioned, or  to form neologisms with different set of "facts". This facts are agreements only we agree to "believe" that this is true  tie: the big bang and the evolution of the universe to dinosaurs to man took place in 6 standard earth days, or whatever.   1 book & 20 different opinions why? Because there were 20 people. BUt everyone is an expert !    what a joke is our human condition because we let it happen.
  All of this religions have millions of children born in to them [read brand new memories],  they are logic most of them they understand logic many even are proficient at math and create computer programs and design silicon wafers that become computers, yet when it come to simple things like what really happens after we die, logic fades likes shadows into the dark, or does it? I believe logic is not the problem, bigotry is.

love no  matter what, and strive to connect not divide, sheila18

I don't think that you should involve logic with religion. I believe in Goddess, but I don't believe in that book that man wrote and it was King James version the sixth time around, modified to suit some peoples needs. I believe in Angels and not the ones down in Anaheim Ca. that play ball either. I think that my Guardian Angel save my life the last time I tried to go and be with her. It's all in belief and what you feel makes you feel good about yourself. It's like haveing Dr. Phil in your head and you are talking to him. I'm not saying by any means that good ol Phil is a God. It's about talking to yourself or praying. There are a lot of unexplained things in this Universe and God is one. It is too bad that some have to kill because their God is better than someone elses God.
Sheila