Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 02:08:59 PM
But I don't think I was subconsciously discounting him just because he wasn't on T.

I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women.  Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman?  I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.

Quote from: Jamie-o on June 14, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women.  Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman?  I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.

I just dismissed him as whiny.  Your transition is as hard as you make it. I have no patience for those who choose to make it harder than it needs to be.

Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 05:27:17 PM
Your transition is as hard as you make it. I have no patience for those who choose to make it harder than it needs to be.

Well, I see that, but how can a person decide for someone else that he's making it harder than it needs to be? Was Keegan making it seem harder than it really was? That's how I read it, but maybe he was just having a tougher time than most guys. I dunno.

Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 05:32:39 PM
Well, I see that, but how can a person decide for someone else that he's making it harder than it needs to be? Was Keegan making it seem harder than it really was? That's how I read it, but maybe he was just having a tougher time than most guys. I dunno.

While transition is an individual process, each transitioner is hardly reinventing it.

Yeah, Keegan was the one that really bothered me. It was his voice and perhaps how his eyes themselves always looked swollen like he was going to cry but was just how they were.

I'm going to agree with Mister that transition is as hard as you make it mentally. There are some things that make us cave, but we all have our coping methods and some people do make it harder and hold onto this victimized label. Not dismissing dysphoria or the times we do fall apart, because it happens to everyone. We can, though, at least lift our spirits some.

But third parties? Nah, there's no way I'm in control of that.

QuoteBut third parties? Nah, there's no way I'm in control of that.

You aren't in control of them, but you can very easily influence them.

Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 07:13:46 PM
You aren't in control of them, but you can very easily influence them.

Oh, we can influence. It's just that influencing is usually for the greater good of people in the long term and doesn't do much for my situation 'now'. I can't help the lack of doctors, a problem that has been present in my country for many years now, that we are still trying to solve. But influencing family and friends? Yes, that's much more plausible and reasonable.

That sort of thing though, no matter how dire, is still too dependent on that other party.

True, but those other parties are rarely necessary.  If people can't/won't get it, they're probably not worth it.  Cut your losses, quit complaining and get on with your life.

Back to the movie, that I just watched a few minutes of...   It wholly concentrates on a very middle class educated white perspective of feminism, as if Catherine Opie and Judith Halberstam weren't a tip off.

Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 07:43:14 PM
True, but those other parties are rarely necessary.  If people can't/won't get it, they're probably not worth it.  Cut your losses, quit complaining and get on with your life.

Back to the movie, that I just watched a few minutes of...   It wholly concentrates on a very middle class educated white perspective of feminism, as if Catherine Opie and Judith Halberstam weren't a tip off.

Agreed. Whining continuously never got anyone anywhere in life. I understand venting every now and then, but if you're not going to look for ways or find the initiative to gain them, you probably don't think it's worth it yourself.

Well, I think the entire movie itself was just a really narrow insight into feminism and ->-bleeped-<-. They covered white feminism and butch lesbians which are hardly an insight in lesbians or feminism but a small portion. Then they only cover FTMs when feminism and butch is not exclusive to female born persons. I mean, what about MTFs and feminism? The documentary got turned into feminist lesbian vs transmen and I thought it did worse for unity and understanding than anything else.

Dang it, why are we continuing this sort of segregation? I think that's what bothers me about documentaries like this.

Quote from: Monty on June 14, 2009, 07:58:11 PM
Agreed. Whining continuously never got anyone anywhere in life. I understand venting every now and then, but if you're not going to look for ways or find the initiative to gain them, you probably don't think it's worth it yourself.

Well, I think the entire movie itself was just a really narrow insight into feminism and ->-bleeped-<-. They covered white feminism and butch lesbians which are hardly an insight in lesbians or feminism but a small portion. Then they only cover FTMs when feminism and butch is not exclusive to female born persons. I mean, what about MTFs and feminism? The documentary got turned into feminist lesbian vs transmen and I thought it did worse for unity and understanding than anything else.

Dang it, why are we continuing this sort of segregation? I think that's what bothers me about documentaries like this.

Because it's the classic oppressed becoming oppressor thing.  There is more pressure put on FTMs by feminists and esp feminist lesbians to not change who they are, their value system, etc than I think most people outside that dynamic can fathom.  My personal view is that feminists try to get FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement. 

Not only does this documentary not cover MTFs (which, with a title like 'boy i am' i wouldn't expect it to), but it also doesn't discuss transmen who do not come from the lesbian community.

A long time ago, I found myself very interested in the work of the gender theorists-- halberstam, foucault, etc...   but now i realize they're entirely full of it.

Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 08:05:58 PMNot only does this documentary not cover MTFs (which, with a title like 'boy i am' i wouldn't expect it to), but it also doesn't discuss transmen who do not come from the lesbian community.

They only touched on it briefly on the end and it was more of a, "Not all transmen come from the lesbian community but most of them do." kind of thing. But last time I checked, even though I've always been attracted to women, I never subscribed to being 'lesbian' in the first place. They might just be assuming that people like me were apart of the community prior just out of technicality. A lot of straight FTMs were apart of the lesbian community, but a lot of them didn't because they didn't feel it fit the description.

I do think some feminists want FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement, but honestly another thing that bothered me about this documentary is the feeling that TS individuals are not oppressed? How is it even any easy way out? I just don't get how it can be considered this.

Quote from: Monty on June 14, 2009, 08:50:01 PM
They only touched on it briefly on the end and it was more of a, "Not all transmen come from the lesbian community but most of them do." kind of thing. But last time I checked, even though I've always been attracted to women, I never subscribed to being 'lesbian' in the first place. They might just be assuming that people like me were apart of the community prior just out of technicality. A lot of straight FTMs were apart of the lesbian community, but a lot of them didn't because they didn't feel it fit the description.

I do think some feminists want FTMs to retain a feeling of oppression so they don't desert the movement, but honestly another thing that bothered me about this documentary is the feeling that TS individuals are not oppressed? How is it even any easy way out? I just don't get how it can be considered this.

Well, from their perspective FTMs pass as men and then receive male privilege and most certainly not oppressed.

Quote from: Mister on June 14, 2009, 09:02:22 PM
Well, from their perspective FTMs pass as men and then receive male privilege and most certainly not oppressed.

Yeah, and it's such a copout to go that route...and it's so easy...and nobody who does it really actually IDENTIFIES as male...we're just looking for the easy way out.

What a crock of...oh, don't get me started.

I had an acquaintance not too long ago who was trying to give me alternatives to T--I could pump iron, I could do some vocal training, stuff like that--but who clearly didn't get that I identify as MALE, not as masculine. And that not being male has messed with me for my entire life. And that transition was the only sane choice to make. So I made it. Not so that I could escape sexism and gain male privilege but so that I could be ME.

Urgh.

Quote from: Arch on June 14, 2009, 10:10:45 PM
Yeah, and it's such a copout to go that route...and it's so easy...and nobody who does it really actually IDENTIFIES as male...we're just looking for the easy way out.

What a crock of...oh, don't get me started.

I had an acquaintance not too long ago who was trying to give me alternatives to T--I could pump iron, I could do some vocal training, stuff like that--but who clearly didn't get that I identify as MALE, not as masculine. And that not being male has messed with me for my entire life. And that transition was the only sane choice to make. So I made it. Not so that I could escape sexism and gain male privilege but so that I could be ME.

Urgh.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

In one word - Agreed

I nod to this thread.

I've been to a few FTM meets over the last few months, and I'd say that although pre-T status can cause a small social disparity, 99% of it really comes down to the guy. If you act like a whiny little attention seeking emo boy, you aren't going to be taken seriously - pre or post T. I've seen guys who have been on T for 20 years be socially dismissed, and some pre T guys be welcomed as one of the crew.

Male, Female or in between - nobody likes a whinger!

Ha ha ha.... Feminists hate us We are traitors! Scum! Betraying "The Cause" (whatever "The Cause" may be... I don't know what on Earth they're fighting for - anyone here ever privvy to it?).

So... they make a documentery about us, and choose to represent us with some whiny little s***. It's propaganda from one group discrediting another group. Welcome to politics.

Pfft... I want to make my own documentary now. With Blackjack. And Hookers. And Aaron Devor.

Quote from: Teknoir on June 15, 2009, 12:59:45 AM
Betraying "The Cause" (whatever "The Cause" may be... I don't know what on Earth they're fighting for - anyone here ever privvy to it?).

While I agree that the feminist cause has largely become whiny and overly academic in today's world, I am very, very glad it happened before I was born.  You consider, when my mom was in college (mid-60's) women were required to wear dresses.  Women had a 9:00 curfew at the dorm.  Men had no curfew.  Stanford University had a quota on women.  Only 10% of their student population was allowed to be female, after which guys with lesser qualifications were accepted instead.  Employers openly said things like, "We're not going to waste this promotion on some woman who will just end up getting married and leaving the work force."

If I had had to live in a female body in that world, I would probably have offed myself by now.  As annoying as the movement is today, we all have a hell of a lot to be grateful for when it comes to the original feminist movement.

I was being tounge in cheek. Well, trying to  .

I do agree they had a lot to fight for back then - and so they should have. The oldschool feminist equal rights movement WAS a good thing... it's just that it's been corrupted into an oppressive man hating diatribe.

I still have no idea what their "current" cause is though!

QuoteWomen had a 9:00 curfew at the dorm.

Hate to say it, but if this were still the case, we wouldn't have so many of these college girls getting murdered on campus. Don't think that was as much a 'rights' thing as a safety thing. I agree with the rest of what you're getting at though.

Someone responded to my icelandic blog at one point and said transsexuals were "silly".

I was a little reminded of that actually. I know it's not what was intended, but I was still reminded.

You know, cause we go through hormonal treatments, self injections, emotional rollercoasters, prejudice, surgery, risking rejection from friends, family, lovers, etc, etc, etc.. for fun...

*sigh*

Quote from: Jamie-o on June 14, 2009, 05:24:28 PM
I wasn't actually thinking in terms of prejudice against partial or non-transitioners, I was thinking more along the lines that we, as a society, more easily dismiss the ideas and concerns of women.  Is it possible that, because he comes off as female for the majority of the documentary, that we subconsciously dismiss him as a whiny woman?  I'm just throwing the idea out there for discussion, folks, so please don't take offense.

Uh, for me, again no. Sorry I misunderstood. Here's the thing--the documentary was about GUYS. So although I thought that Keegan was a whiny little wuss, I took his gender identification as it was given to me. He didn't come across as female because I accepted his professed gender. I didn't even think of him as if he were female--for me, he was more like a self-absorbed, uber-emo fourteen-year-old boy. So if anything, I was being ageist, not sexist. Interesting question, though. It never occurred to me that this was what you meant.

---

Post Merge: June 15, 2009, 11:50:35 AM

---

Quote from: Jamie-o on June 15, 2009, 05:31:17 AM
we all have a hell of a lot to be grateful for when it comes to the original feminist movement.

What, you mean the gals in the nineteenth century?