Here, I'll post and say interesting topic so you don't have to post merge Lori

Quote from: Jessica L. on June 16, 2009, 12:14:50 PM

Lori--
Two things you said stuck out to me. 

The first was the comment about people not noticing what you're doing to your appearance at work.  I have to say that based on my own experience, people DO notice, and they just aren't saying anything.  You're at work, everyone's there to be professional, etc, and your business is your business.  Unless it affects your work, no one at work has a right to know what you're doing.  If you wear pink bracelets and pluck your eyebrows and whatever else, people won't care as long as you're still a good employee.  But don't think they haven't noticed.  They might not be able to pinpoint individual changes (i.e. you got your eyebrows waxed) but they will notice that you look different. 

When I was starting out, I was doing the same thing, feminizing my appearance a bit at a time, and people at work DID notice, they just didn't say anything.  I thought they were oblivious, but they were really just being awkwardly careful not to say anything about it.  Talk about the elephant in the room.  Being open with my co-workers actually helped lighten the atmosphere.  I started by telling people that I was doing laser hair removal, seeing a therapist.  Once I opened the subject, they felt comfortable to ask questions without the whole thing being awkward.  I wouldn't compare what I'm doing to someone like Lyn Conway, but I think that education at the grass-roots personal level is what's going to change acceptance for trans people in society.  One person at a time, I guess. 


Maybe they do notice? They sure are quiet about it. My office manager knows all about me. She knows I'm back on hrt and knows I have to wear a sports bra everyday and thinks it is a really good Idea. I've had issues in the past of poking out and people have made comments. I told her because if somebody were to say something at least she would know about it and can nip it in the bud. Its a personal matter and non of their business. One of the hardest things I have to deal with is my spouse and I work in the same office. It is a logistical nightmare for both of us. Talk about a giant pink elephant in the room

The second thing you said was that
I think it's been said before with respect to surgery that it won't make your life 100% better.  IOW, if you had a crap life before SRS, chances are your life will still be crappy post-SRS, you'll just have a vagina instead.  IMO, the same kind of conventional wisdom applies to HRT and transition in general.  HRT will help to feminize your appearance, but it doesn't magically make all your other problems go away.  I have depression.  I've had it for years.  Some of it is GID related, but some of it is not.  Being on HRT, or socially transitioning, didn't make the depression go away, now I just get depressed about different things.  Learning to deal with those things is part of what makes transition so hard. 

Yes I know that. It is the reason why I tried to emphasize PTSD and not transsexuality with my new therapist today. I know I have a coctail of issues and two major ones that have spawned other things. I want to deal with the PTSD before worrying a out transition and being TS. Transition is not going to stop my paranoia, cutting, anxiety and whatever else I have going on. It may cure the depression though?? Who knows. I understand what you are saying.


If you put all your eggs in the basket of hope that HRT will make you into a girl, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment. 

At my age that is probably true but I'm going to try anyhow. It would be stupid to not at least have tried don't you think? Stranger things have happened. I could get lucky.


I don't mean to be the pessimist here, but I am trying to be realistic and say that the kinds of things you're talking about are kind of scary-- "I won't live like that"  If HRT doesn't do what you want it to, are you saying you'll kill yourself?


Yes. Undeniably without hesitation. Some people can live like that. I cannot. I know my limits and I know what I am willing to accept. There is nothing scary about it. Its just fact.

  I think a lot of us here have been suicidal or depressed to the point of suicide, and speaking from my own experience (which may or may not help you at all) it's important to find your reasons to live outside of how you look, outside of how smoothly transition goes and outside of anything except the part of you that says "there are things I still want to do, a life I still want to live.  I might not pass perfectly, or be a beautiful supermodel, but there's an advantage to living my life in as authentic a way as I can." 


We are all unique just like everybody else. You may be happy with who you are and what you see in the mirror. You are very beautiful from what I have seen and very feminine. I can find reasons outside of how I look if I didn't have this thing called body dysmorphia. Plus, even if I could, most of society cannot. They believe what they see and gender it determined in a glance. I don't need to be beautiful. Just pretty. Cute even. Female. Passable. It is a tall order I know. It is who I am and what I need.

I think Sandy has said some great things, and probably put everything more eloquently than I could.  Please don't think I'm attacking you, I'm just concerned, and like Sandy said, we're here for you, and talking about your issues and problems is good.  We're not experts, but we are here to support you. 

Love and hugs.

Hi Kate (and everyone),
Well, this is an interesting subject really. I think a lot of it has to do with the environment you live in. You live in a small town. Is it generally pretty accepting of LGBT or is it so small townspeople don't even know what that is? I personally think it is impossible for you to transition from the person you look like pre-transition to the person you want to look like post-transition without people knowing. Just some questions you may or may not get asked:

1) Why is your hair growing longer? Why does it look more feminine (or shorter for FTM)?
2) Have you been working out or something? You look like your pecs are getting bigger.
3) What's up with those red marks on your face? Did you burn yourself? Oh wow, this is the fifth time you've had those red marks, what's up?
4) Why are you wearing girls shoes, jeans, shirt, ponytail holder, etc., etc.?
5) When did you get your nails done? Is that pink nail polish or clear?
6) OMG, are your legs shaved? Are your arms trimmed? What's the deal with you always wearing long pants and shirts in the summertime? Why do you always cover up?

Then physical contact like a hug or a touch on the back:
1) Dude, is that a bra you are wearing under those clothes, WTF?
2) Wow, your arms feel smooth, skin feels smooth, hmmm!
3) Are you losing weight?

Deciding to wear other girls clothes they can't see:
1) Hey, I didn't want to say anything, but are you wearing girl's underwear? I saw you lean forward and I thought I saw that, what is going on?
2) Um, is that a girl's t shirt under that jacket?
3) Hey, those look like girl socks, what up?

Etc., etc., etc. I got asked a lot of these questions. I lived pretty androgynous for like the first year of my transition. I was not stealth. I didn't walk around advertising TS or anything. The way I did it was I came out to my friends and family, people I would eventually have to come out to. What's the point in avoiding the inevitable. If you are 100% DEFINITELY transitioning, if you are not turning back, why not let people know? You'll be coming out to them anyway. I think it's a very dangerous game to play with people you love/work with/friends, etc. to risk being outted without having a whole conversation prepared. I don't mean rehearsed, I just mean if someone says "What's up with this or that?" that you are prepared to come out and talk to them about it.

Like Jessica said, people will know. I thought I had everyone fooled. Once I came out, they KNEW what was going on. This was at the beginning stages of androgyny too, it's not like I was walking around in frilly tops or anything. This was post-laser, hair growing out, and wearing just basically girl jeans and loose tops and hoodies. I have always plucked my brows and been a little bit Metro, but still. It's pretty apparent to people that you are changing. Whatever changes you see in yourself (which are usually ZERO), people see tenfold in you.

So, transition in stealth, not if you plan on having a successful one; not if the goal is to not be recognized as who you were before. Granted for me, FFS made the difference, but if I wouldn't have had FFS planned, I would have come out even sooner, if that was even possible. I came out to family and like three friends before I was even on HRT. I knew what I was doing, I knew where I was going, I had to come out to make the discomfort of avoiding the truth be one less things to worry about.

I look back now at the decision and I have no regrets. People really respected the fact that I had individual discussions with them. They could ask me WHATEVER they wanted and I'd answer them honestly. I never got a question I couldn't answer because I already thought of the answers in my head. I used my blog here to document it all, good and bad. The difference between me and a lot of others is I transitioned with no kids; I had no one to think about other than myself. Sure, family and loved ones mattered, but it's different with kids, I know. I mean, I don't know what that is like because I don't have them, but it makes transition different.

Anyway, Kate, those are my thoughts. They probably echo many others and there are parts of what Lori said about thinking people don't notice that I could agree with too sometimes. You stated that you didn't understand why people would transition in stealth and I don't even think it's possible unless transitioning means physically just dressing different. My thoughts, Meghan

My partner was on hormones for 4 years and two years post op before she socially transitioned. None of her friends and colleagues had a clue.

People realised I was female long before I made any attempts to feminise myself or transition. I guess I was never very convincing as a man.

You certainly can't be stealthy if you post your name and/or photograph on the internet.

Ann

Quote from: Anonymouse on June 17, 2009, 04:49:26 AM
My partner was on hormones for 4 years and two years post op before she socially transitioned. None of her friends and colleagues had a clue.

People realised I was female long before I made any attempts to feminise myself or transition. I guess I was never very convincing as a man.

You certainly can't be stealthy if you post your name and/or photograph on the internet.

Ann

Still the therapists if they had one would know, the pharmacist if they had one may certainly have guessed.  The doctors who performed the surgery definitely would know.  Ya I know I'm splitting hairs.  Did this person not have to go through an RLT of some kind and change their name???

Anyway as I said, I'm splitting hairs.

-={LR}=-

Thanks for the comments and insights.  I'm only doing this once in one place, so my experience is very limited.

Meghan, I guess my town is just very accepting.  The reaction of most people is: Whatever. (Need to add the hand gesture here.)

I had a neighbor recognize I was going through "the change" before I started full time and was only two weeks on hormones.  Although my friends and many others recognize that I'm transitioning, I think many others in town just think I'm a ->-bleeped-<-.  (Whatever...)

I don't think I could do this in isolation, without the support of my friends and therapist and hairdresser and doctor, and the acceptance of my pharmacist and insurance agent and the girls who work at the coffee shop and the waiters at my favorite pub, etc.  But perhaps I'm just a wimp.  My hat is off to those of you who manage to struggle through this on your own.  

Still, because of my good experience and my very limited experience, if asked for advice I would tell anyone to do this with the help of those who love and accept you.

- Kate

Absolutely, Kate!

You cannot do this on your own.  Even if you attempt "deep stealth", you'd still need the assistance of doctors, friends and others as you transitioned.  Unfortunately, unlike the caterpillar, we cannot just go into our room and form a chrysalis (science fiction music here).

It's so much less difficult today because of raising of consciousness the result is people are more accepting.  Especially those who take money from us.  And a trans persons money is just as green as anyones money.

Having the support of those who love and accept you is phenomenal to the transition process.  I felt very vulnerable during my transition and support from my family and friends helped me tremendously.

Just one more thing, Kate.  In the book, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters" which discusses the spirituality aspects of quantum physics, there was a quote that I took to heart:
"An expert is just someone who has more experience than you"

To others, Kate, you are now an expert and have more experience than you think.

-Sandy

Quote from: Lori on June 16, 2009, 10:03:05 PM

Maybe they do notice? They sure are quiet about it. My office manager knows all about me. She knows I'm back on hrt and knows I have to wear a sports bra everyday and thinks it is a really good Idea. I've had issues in the past of poking out and people have made comments. I told her because if somebody were to say something at least she would know about it and can nip it in the bud. Its a personal matter and non of their business. One of the hardest things I have to deal with is my spouse and I work in the same office. It is a logistical nightmare for both of us. Talk about a giant pink elephant in the room.

Yes I know that. It is the reason why I tried to emphasize PTSD and not transsexuality with my new therapist today. I know I have a coctail of issues and two major ones that have spawned other things. I want to deal with the PTSD before worrying a out transition and being TS. Transition is not going to stop my paranoia, cutting, anxiety and whatever else I have going on. It may cure the depression though?? Who knows. I understand what you are saying.

At my age that is probably true but I'm going to try anyhow. It would be stupid to not at least have tried don't you think? Stranger things have happened. I could get lucky.

Yes. Undeniably without hesitation. Some people can live like that. I cannot. I know my limits and I know what I am willing to accept. There is nothing scary about it. Its just fact.

We are all unique just like everybody else. You may be happy with who you are and what you see in the mirror. You are very beautiful from what I have seen and very feminine. I can find reasons outside of how I look if I didn't have this thing called body dysmorphia. Plus, even if I could, most of society cannot. They believe what they see and gender it determined in a glance. I don't need to be beautiful. Just pretty. Cute even. Female. Passable. It is a tall order I know. It is who I am and what I need.

I always mess up blockquotes and whatnot, so I'm just going to write one long reply without breaking things up. 

My experience at work sounds almost identical to yours, Lori.  I never had anyone say anything to me.  Seriously.  Nothing.  When I came out to my boss, that was the first time I had ever discussed anything relating to being trans at work.  No one there knew, no one would ask.  The group I work with is pretty professional and everyone minds their own business.  I have a feeling that you're sort of in the same situation.  A few people asked my boss if she knew what was going on, but she just deflected the questions, and I was okay with her doing that. 

I think the experience Meghan mentions about people asking some very personal questions might be an exception rather than a rule.  I think some of the things she's been asked rank up there as being kind of rude.  Regarding the workplace, though, people aren't going to comment on how your face looks, and especially not your underwear or something like that, that's just inappropriate x10^9.  Of course, your underwear shouldn't be showing, but still. 

Regarding your therapist, I think maybe I was over-reacting a little.  It sounds like you've really got your head on regarding the things you need to address, and it seems to me like you're being very responsible.  I guess the only thing I would add is that we're here for you, so if you ever need an extra ear to listen to, talk (or type) away. 

With respect to suicidality: One of my therapists has said that not everyone that wants to kill themselves is unbalanced.  Some people have really given it a lot of thought, have weighed the decisions and the ramifications of each and decided that death is preferable to life.  Like you said, everyone is unique.  Some people can analyze that question and arrive at the conclusion you do.  I understand where you're coming from, even though I would tend to see the world as being somehow less for your absence (or the absence of anyone here, really).  Don't think that I'm trying to guilt you into living when you're unhappy, I'm just trying to explain my knee-jerk reaction to the thought of you killing yourself.  I hope things work out for you.  Please do keep us posted. 

AND..... back on topic:

Quote from: K8 on June 17, 2009, 07:46:55 AM
Meghan, I guess my town is just very accepting.  The reaction of most people is: Whatever. (Need to add the hand gesture here.)

If most of those people knew you as [male name] then that might be part of the reason that they don't have the reaction you might fear.  At the risk of over generalized theorizing, I think most transphobia is just a fear of unknown and faceless "others".  Once people realize that transsexuals are their friends, or people they work with, or loyal customers, they suddenly don't seem to mind so much. 

It's possible that the openness about your past, and not being stealth is part of what contributes to the high level of acceptance.  People might have the tendency to feel tricked or fooled if a trans person is stealth, but they can't play those kind of butt-hurt emotions if you've been open and they know you're trans.  Of course, not everyone wants to be an activist/educator, but in some situations, especially small towns, choosing to transition might be choosing to not have a chance at stealth at all.  Most women (and men) don't transition to be out-trans-activists, they transition to be women or men.  Maybe sometimes it just comes with the territory?  Just sort of my $0.02.  YMMV. 

Okay, back to work. 

Quote from: Ladyrider on June 17, 2009, 07:17:04 AM
Did this person not have to go through an RLT of some kind and change their name???
-={LR}=-

Actually she did not do any RLE and she still managed to get two refferals. Her shrink took the view that if she was going to do it anyway he would rather her use a reputable surgeon than her get on a plane and be butchered in Mexico. The SOC are guidlines and not completely set in stone.

Please don't think I am advocating this for anyone else but it did turn out to be the right choice for her.

Ann