President Obama just slapped the gay and lesbian citizens of this country in the face with his support of 'don't ask, don't tell' and DOMA.  He promised to do away with both in his pre-election speeches.

The baby boomers who took to the streets in protest in the 70's now seem to believe reason and talks will get the same results their protests did almost four decades earlier.  And they have taught their kids the same thing.

I prefer peaceful talks, reason and common sense over riots and mayhem but history shows the latter gets as much or more accomplished than the former and much more quickly.  Is it time to once again take to the streets in protest?

No politician I know wants the streets of their neighborhood, town or city filled with angry citizens.  The media, on the other hand, loves this kind of thing and will gladly feature it on the evening news.  And the average Joe will see there are real people out there who are very upset with how they are treated.

It's an effective way to gain recognition.

Women protested to gain their civil rights.  Blacks protested to gain their civil rights.  Maybe the LGBT community needs to do the same thing now. 

But we have one reality that women and blacks don't, we can hide being gay, lesbian or trans (unless you're TS).  That means those who live a dual life might feel they are risking exposure if they gather in the streets in protest.

Is that enough to keep us from being recognized as a formidable voting block and therefore gain our deserved civil rights?

Julie

Quote'don't ask, don't tell' and DOMA

Either marriage or the military are institutions that need to be done away with, both discriminate and cause hardships. Gender and sex are the least of their problems.

I think that right now we are doing reasonably well both in the political arena and in the culture at large, despite Obama's (better be temporary) reversals.

I'd place priority in the short term (this year) on an inclusive ENDA over repeal of DOMA or DADT. We're getting traction on gay marriage in states, so that could be a focus too -- reversing Prop 8, making sure something similar doesn't go through in Massachusetts or the other states with gay marriage, New York ... well, we'll see about that. I think next election cycle (2010) will be the time to judge Obama's record on gay rights, not just a few months in, especially ocnsidering how much has gone on in these few months.

There is not going to be a federal reversal of DOMA until at least 15 states have gay marriage.  It's not up to Obama, its up to the Congress, and until they voters that sent those clowns to the DC Circus, that law will not change.

I have to agree with you there, Kat.

And keeping the states that have added gay marriage may be difficult to hold on to:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_us/us_gay_marriage_maine

The firm that did the public relations work for the Prop 8 effort in CA has been hired to bring their efforts to Maine.

I expect our fiends friends at the LDS church will start sending out pulpit sermons next.

-Sandy

They're getting a boost from the diocese, which is allowing signature-gathering at churches.

I'm thinking it's way past time to start taxing the "churches." If they are going to allow and encourage membership to vote particular ways, allow petition drives for political causes into their sanctuaries, and hire PR firms, attorneys and assorted other political action groups to be paid from their coffers then they are de facto political organizations.

Time to start levying property taxes and other taxes just as we tax other political organizations.

Report those churches to the IRS. If enough people raise a fuss with the IRS, they just might take away tax exempt status for specific churches/houses of worship.

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Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 03:39:43 PM

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Heres a 538 dot com link. Shows the approve/disapprove polling on 7 different GLBT rights issues.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/gay%20rights

Were, IMO, going about this wrong by rushing to achieve marriage equality. Look at the approve numbers when it comes to say, housing discrimination in deep red states such as AL.

With the exception of gay marriage, civil unions, and child adoption almost every state polls at 55% plus on the other issues that are of importance to us.

Theres even, what many of you might consider, surprises in regards to civil unions. States such as Alaska show about a 55% approve rate. Several, if not most, red states are at 45% plus when asked about unions.

It might take more time, but going for incremental state by state increases in regards to our civil rights is most likely the best course of action.

PS If I linked y'all into 538 correcly you should be about to run through all 18 postings that are in regards to "gay rights." I suggest also looking into the thread that restates the gay marriage question when polls are conducted.

Happy reading... Mich'   link repeat   http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/search/label/gay%20rights

The ruling in California has been since these ballot measures are not political - i.e. not one party or the other, but often social, then the churches are not violating the policy.  I don't agree with that, but as long as the parties are left out, its not considered political.

Quote from: tekla on June 18, 2009, 09:32:28 PM
The ruling in California has been since these ballot measures are not political - i.e. not one party or the other, but often social, then the churches are not violating the policy.  I don't agree with that, but as long as the parties are left out, its not considered political.

I dunno, I'm starting to see a lot of sense in the Sir Bedivere argument about witches, ducks, wood and floating. I say if we weigh the churches and they weigh less or same as the political parties that we just go ahead and admit that they are political parties.

What else floats?

Wood.

Michelle, thank you for that link.

I don't think it necessarily suggets that gay marriage is the wrong battle front, though it's certainly subject to debate. Just because it's not as popular, doesn't mean it's not important. Perhaps legalizing gay marriage is a tool for making homosexuality moer acceptable to the mainstream of society. Also, look at how these views have changed over time (support is still rising as fast as ever) and how reframing the issue as a negative right ("should the government be allowed to restrict the right of gay couples to marry" rather than "should the government allow gay couples to marry") increases the support for legalizing gay marriage by an enormous amount.

Anyway, interesting food for thought.

Many people I know are fed up with the unfulfilled promises of our elected officials.  And there's a lot of talk about revolt from the grass roots sections. 

We all know the best time to push through unpopular issues is at the beginning of a political term.  Voters have short memories and politicians know that. 

So why has Obama basically turned his back on the LGBT community and risked angering them?  Could it be he and his backers have no intent to honor the campaign promises he made?  Could it be he is no friend of the LGBT community?

Our community is hopping mad right now.  Many LGBT big money contributors have pulled their support.  But it seems the Obama administration doesn't care.  Does this mean we will soon find out the mainstream simply doesn't want the people of our community to gain the rights we deserve?  Are we deluding ourselves into believing things are okay when they really are not?

This isn't just about gay marriage.  While that may be the hot topic now there's a plethora of other civil rights we are fighting for and that includes enacting and enforcing transgender rights.  If something that has as much as support as gay marriage and eliminating don't ask, don't tell is ignored, do you think they will even care about trans rights?

The State of Illinois has a law protecting transgender people from discrimination.  Yet, I and others I know have been directly discriminated against and the state simply ignores our complaints.  To our face they make all the promises in the world but when it comes time to act they do nothing.  The politically connected trans people I know tell me the laws here protecting trans people are never enforced and basically mean nothing.  And those who violate those laws know this.

We are a non-factor in the eyes of the people we elected to represent us.  And I don't mean just here in Illinois.  It's national. 

And Obama just proved that.

Julie

Could it be he and his backers have no intent to honor the campaign promises he made?  Could it be he is no friend of the LGBT community?

Or could it be, with two wars, one totally pycho nation (N. Korea) with nuclear weapons, one nation with Nukes going down the tubes fast, a crisis in Iran, an economy in shambles, 1/3 of the nation not covered by any health care, a devastated industrial base and a Congress that redefines worthless, that he might be a bit busy this week. 

Second, and my big pet point.  Look, national stuff really don't matter.  If your local situation sucks, well national change is not going to spin things around.  And where it is good, like SF, Seattle, Portland - well even having Bush and Cheney in office didn't effect us much. 

So fight for change, work to change laws, get rid of useless ones, add new ones, provide funding and oversight for local programs.  All programs that work are local programs. The places that are the best places for TG persons to live are that way because of LOCAL efforts, not national intervention.

The federal gubm't ain't riding to the rescue.  Not now, perhaps not ever (or at least until it's too late) - and that's called Federalism for the most part.

And the very best time to push through unpopular political issues is at the start of the second term.

Quote from: tekla on June 19, 2009, 09:00:11 AM
Could it be he and his backers have no intent to honor the campaign promises he made?  Could it be he is no friend of the LGBT community?

Or could it be, with two wars, one totally pycho nation (N. Korea) with nuclear weapons, one nation with Nukes going down the tubes fast, a crisis in Iran, an economy in shambles, 1/3 of the nation not covered by any health care, a devastated industrial base and a Congress that redefines worthless, that he might be a bit busy this week. 

Second, and my big pet point.  Look, national stuff really don't matter.  If your local situation sucks, well national change is not going to spin things around.  And where it is good, like SF, Seattle, Portland - well even having Bush and Cheney in office didn't effect us much. 

So fight for change, work to change laws, get rid of useless ones, add new ones, provide funding and oversight for local programs.  All programs that work are local programs. The places that are the best places for TG persons to live are that way because of LOCAL efforts, not national intervention.

The federal gubm't ain't riding to the rescue.  Not now, perhaps not ever (or at least until it's too late) - and that's called Federalism for the most part.

And the very best time to push through unpopular political issues is at the start of the second term.

Kat, I hate it when you are your most irritatingly correct.

The grassroots movements have always done had the best effects.  That is what pushed Mr Obama into the Presidency in the first place.

But dadgumbit *he promised*!

Yeah, spank me for being a whining little girl, but it's like when daddy *promised* to spend the day with me, but then the phone rings and work takes him away.

I feel hurt and betrayed that Mr. Obama has not been more active and more vocal in discussing LGBT issues.  Though I did have a conversation conference call with Rea Carey of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and she met the President recently and as he greeted her the first words out of his mouth were, "So what can we do about moving the Hate Crimes bill forward?"  So he is not ignorant, nor ignoring, but feels that there is only so much that can be done through the executive branch directly, DOMA and DODT really hobble efforts to move things along.

I still feel hurt though.

-Sandy

Quote from: tekla on June 19, 2009, 09:00:11 AM
Could it be he and his backers have no intent to honor the campaign promises he made?  Could it be he is no friend of the LGBT community?

Or could it be, with two wars, one totally pycho nation (N. Korea) with nuclear weapons, one nation with Nukes going down the tubes fast, a crisis in Iran, an economy in shambles, 1/3 of the nation not covered by any health care, a devastated industrial base and a Congress that redefines worthless, that he might be a bit busy this week. 

Second, and my big pet point.  Look, national stuff really don't matter.  If your local situation sucks, well national change is not going to spin things around.  And where it is good, like SF, Seattle, Portland - well even having Bush and Cheney in office didn't effect us much. 

So fight for change, work to change laws, get rid of useless ones, add new ones, provide funding and oversight for local programs.  All programs that work are local programs. The places that are the best places for TG persons to live are that way because of LOCAL efforts, not national intervention.

The federal gubm't ain't riding to the rescue.  Not now, perhaps not ever (or at least until it's too late) - and that's called Federalism for the most part.

And the very best time to push through unpopular political issues is at the start of the second term.

You should apply for Obama's press secretary.  Nice spin but it doesn't wash.

When your house is in disorder it should be fixed before you go globetrotting pretending to be the hero who can fix the world's problems.  Other countries hate us for sticking our nose in their business.  No one is going to stop North Korea from developing and, if they so wish, using atomic weapons.  And we can't fix Iran either but we can piss them off. 

The terrorists who threaten this country do so because we force ourselves on their culture, their nation and their way of life.  They want to be free of our intervention.  And they are not going to be persuaded into believing our way of life is preferable to theirs.  History has proven that.

And I beg to differ, but national stuff does matter, A LOT!  We have so many problems here at home Obama can spend the rest of his term working on fixing them.  And he should.  Uniting the nation would be a great start.  Instead of pretending to be absorbed in things over which he has little control, he should get this nation on track to be working as one instead of being up in arms over things as basic civil rights.  If we are in turmoil how can we expect to fix anything abroad?

Take the cape off.  Remove the "S" from your chest.  Fix the matters at home before flying off to save the world.

Yes, we need to keep our eyes focused on what the other guy is doing but we do not need to be spending time in their countries trying to force them to see  things our way.  It doesn't work, never has, never will.  Remember Viet Nam.

And you won't make your second term if you don't keep the promises to the people who voted you into office in your first term.  So it's best to do it early in your first term, that is if your office has term limits.  Otherwise just make those early days in your term dedicated to keeping your campaign promises.  That's how to stay in office.

Now, back to civil rights, the national debt, unemployment and everything else that ails this country.  Start by giving people their basic civil rights and free their energies to help with the rest of this mess.

Julie

Quotehe should get this nation on track to be working as one instead of being up in arms over things as basic civil rights

No amount of laws or threat of jail is going to change the way people feel about another's behavior. Forcing people to accept homosexual behaviors is only going to drive the wedge deeper.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 19, 2009, 02:27:24 PM
No amount of laws or threat of jail is going to change the way people feel about another's behavior. Forcing people to accept homosexual behaviors is only going to drive the wedge deeper.

It does not change thoughts, agreed.  But neither did the civil rights act of 1964.

But the civil rights act did change behavior through laws.

And over time, behavior changed thought.

Quote from: Sandy on June 19, 2009, 02:46:37 PM
It does not change thoughts, agreed.  But neither did the civil rights act of 1964.

But the civil rights act did change behavior through laws.

And over time, behavior changed thought.

Actually, the act itself changed very little behavior beyond the collective behavior of some Fed. government bureaus in some states.

In 1964 I was in elementary school. Lemme see, O yeah, I was in 9th grade when the first black faces arrived -- three males --- from being bused away across the county and past the school we all lived within three miles of.

In 1974 or so the Feds started demanding "busing for the purpose of racially balancing schools." By the 1990s pretty much every district (not those in the Northeast where township schools are common and are perhaps the largest perpetrators of segregation even today) in the country was as integrated as it could be.

So, over time, yes, the overt behaviors have gone underground into peoples hearts and minds where they still harbor racial animosities, but generally do not apply those to workplace, schools and housing. Although the churches are prolly the most segregated aspect of USA-life we still have.

Now, Obama can sign a few executive orders, hell, he may even decide to draft some legislation and submit it through this or that Rep for passing by the House and Senate. But just like he makes a budget and submits that, but then has no major control over how Congress passes that budget, he has no control over Federal laws.

tekla's absolutely spot-on. Just like LBJ for civils rights, Obama might be able to push this or that and certainly he can use the "bully pulpit," but actually changing laws he's not going to be able to do. Congress does that and the SC rules, if suits are filed, whether or not those laws pass muster with the constitution.

So the Obama press-secretary or spin-doctors can speak to what tekla said, but if they do they'd be actually "spinning" you the truth of American constitutional practice.

And as was also mentioned -- I'm sorry, it does strike me that there are more than a few current events that trouble me a whole lot more than do DOMA and ENDA and whether or not "gay" marriage is recognized by the Feds.

I mean, it would be nice, for instance, to see a Federal Water Authority to help states learn to parcel out water rights, and a Federal Clean Air and Water Act that was enforced, strictly. It would be nice if, perhaps, the Feds would shut the DEA out of insisting that hemp = marijuana for the simple fact is that hemp could help replace and reduce toxic items like petrochemical fertilizers and ethanol costs, building materials for construction in everything from office buildings to houses and garages, fiber for clothing rather than the current polyester (both cheaper, stronger and longer-lasting -- Levi's used to "wear like iron" because they were originally made from hemp, not cotton.

Yes, LTBG issues are important to me, but I'd rather see some action on a few of those things I listed prior to me getting too concerned about repeal of DOMA and whether or not LTBG-folk can openly serve in the military. Those things are window-dressing and the real issues of our lives are much more mundane and foundational and get consistently ignored.

Radicals need to get educated instead of getting angry about the non-essentials. If my TN BC never gets changed to F then fine with me as long as the planet I live on isn't being made dead-space in the name of the choice of couches I can make for my living-room, or whether or not my friends Les and Russell can get married while one is serving his final hitch in the Navy.

Get real here, folks. Please.

Nichole

QuoteBut the civil rights act did change behavior through laws.

And over time, behavior changed thought.

How much time? Here in 2009 in Mississippi look at the statistics. Blacks are still at the bottom in everything. Yes there are a few tokens but by far behavior has not changed. The State's Attorney General refused to investigate an " Ethics Report" that stated the problems in local government.

All right, I'll admit that I have a bit of stars in my eyes about things.

And personally, I fear gray goo more than I fear other environmental challenges.  I don't believe that we are mature enough to handle true nano-technology.  But see no real restrictions preventing it from escaping the lab.  Already nano-particles are used in many products and we have no idea of their long lasting effects on people or environment.  They can pass the blood/brain barrier with no problem.  Wait until the first nano-machines get going.

In 1964 I too was in grammar school.  I saw the marches on TV.  I didn't see a black person in the flesh until years later (I'm from the north donchalknow).  I didn't quite understand what all the fuss was about.

There are many issues that need attention.  And virtually all of them could be considered more important than LGBT issues.  Water, land management, hell even the Bureau of Indian Affairs could come before DOMA.  The unemployment rate on most reservations is over 80 percent.  The level of alcoholism is many times higher than the national average.  It is an outrage that the people who never had a garden of Eden myth because they never left it are kept virtually enslaved by our so called free society.

We can debate these issues or others all bloody night.  But it comes down to this:

If not us, then who?

If not now, then when?

-Sandy