QuoteIf not us, then who?

If not now, then when?

There are far greater problems that will cause a great loss of life and population in the world. Staying alive will be our problem and it will happen soon enough. How about starting, by not buying any product with nano-particles.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 19, 2009, 07:14:19 PM
There are far greater problems that will cause a great loss of life and population in the world. Staying alive will be our problem and it will happen soon enough. How about starting, by not buying any product with nano-particles.

That is about as easy as trying not to buy any products that used CFC's in the 1980's.

Just about any skin care product that has an spf rating of 30 or better uses nano particle zinc oxide.

Most exterior paints used these days use nano particle pigments.

It's already in the food chain and the landfills.  Attempts to regulate the use of NP have been bogged down through bureaucratic red tape.  The EPA has been behind the curve on this.  The previous administration did quite a bit to restrict presentation of any scientific information that did not enhance corporate development.

I could go on, but I'd end up sounding like DL and one of her conspiracy theories.

-Sandy

To answer your question, no, it is not working.  Can Obama be pressured?  Perhaps.  I just still am amazed that so many people thought he was our savior, and that things would be suddenly great because we have changed politicians in the white house.  I hope I am wrong but I think we have seen all the progress we will see from this administration, which amounts to ZIP.  Promises aside, race aside, intentions aside, he is a politician.  Until he sees that we really are serious about making him keep his promises, nothing will change and he will continue to pass the buck to congress.  How can that happen?  I am all out of ideas.  But I do think it will take a new generation of TG folks unafraid to build upon the foundation some of us old timers have laid.  I.e., live your life, make no apologies, demand to be recognized as human.  Hearts and opinions are changed one relationship at a time.

Kristi

Quotehe will continue to pass the buck to congress

Congress is the most powerful branch of government. The president is just a check and balance to congress. We do not have a King only a Federal Republic.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 20, 2009, 09:23:59 AM
Congress is the most powerful branch of government. The president is just a check and balance to congress. We do not have a King only a Federal Republic.

Where have you been for the last eight years?

Bush on the throne (stolen in a still disputed razor thin election)

Bush's brain, Rove, telling him what to do

Cheney in charge of the black ops,

And six years of a republican dominated, 9/11 fearing, rubber stamping congress.

Bush was king in almost every sense of the word except for having a life long tenure.  And many referred to him as king George in satire.

I won't go too much deeper into politics here, since we have a forum for that, but early on he was felt to be the worst president since Nixon.  Since he has left power it is increasingly being shown that Nixon had nothing on King George.

To return the thread to it's original intention, I agree with the vocal people here that say that we need to be more visible through demonstration and demand of equal protection if we want our rights.  They will not be gifted to us by a magnanimous world that feels that we deserve them.

-Sandy

QuoteWhere have you been for the last eight years?

Telling people to vote for independent congressmen.  The truth is, corporations buy the government.  The people have the power to put corporations out of business, but rather than research them and there products they take the easy way and give up their power and rights. They done this with accepting the government fear chant and go along with every freedom that is taken away.

Your dollar is your vote for a better government and life, spend or save it wisely.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 20, 2009, 09:23:59 AM
Congress is the most powerful branch of government. The president is just a check and balance to congress. We do not have a King only a Federal Republic.

Well for eight years we have been told that the real problem was a president who would not support what congress wanted to do.  I am now officially calling BS on everyone in Washington.  They give us lip service and stab us in the back with their deadly votes and inaction.

Kristi

QuoteWell for eight years we have been told that the real problem was a president who would not support what congress wanted to do.

Congress can override a veto. It is not that can not do it, it is that party membership is stronger than the public voice till election time comes.

That is why we need more independent congressmen than party members.

Quote from: Kristi on June 20, 2009, 02:44:57 PM
Well for eight years we have been told that the real problem was a president who would not support what congress wanted to do.  I am now officially calling BS on everyone in Washington.  They give us lip service and stab us in the back with their deadly votes and inaction.

Kristi

Really!! lf so, for 6 years of the Bush Reign the Republican congress refused to pass the legislation the that was wanted? And for the 6 years prior to that a Republican-controlled Congress passed no legislation that it wanted to get passed?

Have we been living through the same 12 years in the same country? 

I think you misunderstood.  We were talking about this one specific issue and the courage of those who say they support our rights, not whether or not anything at all got passed in congress.     Surely you have seen what has been happening with ENDA, as just one example.  But in a way, you have made my point.  Congress passes pretty much what it wants, often along nothing more than party lines, not what is the decent thing to do.  Only when election time rolls around do they seem to remember the promises they made to get into office, and they open their mouths and get our hopes up all over again.   Of course it fades quickly enough.   And no, I haven't seen too many vetoes being overturned lately.  Blame it on partisan politics if you want, but I just call it more of the same.  Show me the politicians who stand up and say enough is enough, who say that we will not tolerate discrimination because it is evil, who would risk doing something that a few hotheads in their home districts would not like,  the ones who work tirelessly against hateful and bigoted legislation, the ones who will not just pass the buck and say it is some else's problem, and I would gladly eat my words.  I look forward to the day when my stomach is nice and full.

Kristi

Quote from: Nichole on June 19, 2009, 03:42:11 PM
Radicals need to get educated instead of getting angry about the non-essentials. If my TN BC never gets changed to F then fine with me as long as the planet I live on isn't being made dead-space in the name of the choice of couches I can make for my living-room, or whether or not my friends Les and Russell can get married while one is serving his final hitch in the Navy.

Get real here, folks. Please.

Nichole

You may feel civil rights are non-essentials but, thankfully, our founding fathers did not.  Our country was built on providing basic human rights for EVERYONE, not just the majority.  While we all want clean air and water, freedom is far more important.  It's the foundation of this country. 

We are not enjoying the rights we deserve because they are being denied by the majority.  The Constitution offsets majority rule with protections of minority rights yet that basic premise is being ignored by our politicians because they want to keep their jobs.  They should instead be concerned with the original intent of the framers of the Constitution and be supporting that intent.

Yes, Obama is to some degree a puppet, just like every president before him but what he says is what his puppet masters want him to say and right now they are not interested in providing basic human rights for the citizens of the United States.  They are only concerned with keeping their jobs and lining their pockets.  Our only retaliation is to deny them our vote and expose them for who they are. 

But, like Kristi pointed out, "it will take a new generation of TG folks unafraid to build upon the foundation some of us old timers have laid.  I.e., live your life, make no apologies, demand to be recognized as human.  Hearts and opinions are changed one relationship at a time."  But there has to be enough "old timers" out there forging the way if we expect the younger ones to mass in numbers sizable enough to get our elected officials to notice.

That means being willing to put your face in front of a camera and the "old timers" willing to do that are few and far between.

Now I'm going to enjoy a breath of fresh air and a clean glass of cold water.  I can do that but I can't enjoy my basic human rights because they are being denied.

Julie

Well, where would the civil rights movement have gone without protests and demonstrations? Nowhere.

QuoteWe were talking about this one specific issue and the courage of those who say they support our rights,

Me thinks that you are politically naive. Politics is you wash my back and I will wash yours. It requires horse trading. Any issue such as rights requires something in return what is on the table in return for these rights?

Any issue such as rights requires something in return what is on the table in return for these rights?

Our freedom of economic choice. If gaining civil rights means that I have turn my freedom of choice within a free market economic system over to the State, then theres no gain in "rights" whatsoever. In fact I would have lost way more than I have gained.

Go back to the first page of this thread. I linked y'all directly the "gay rights" portion of the 538 blog.

OUR ISSUES WILL GAIN MOMENTUM AT THE LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL. We're too small in numbers at the moment to press our case at the Federal level, save a SCOTUS decision.

Also keep in mind that Obama is losing political capital by the week, if not the day. Diane Feinstien mentioned that the Dems don't have the votes to pass health care. The "Cap and Trade Bill" can't even make it out of Committee, AND THE DEMS CONTROL THAT PROCESS.

Recent Rasmussen and Gallop polling, recent as in this past week, reveals that the US public sees the Stimulus as a failure. The various bailouts as an overreach.

The public dosent want to see the release of torture photos from the Bush Admin.

A Gallop poll shows that the American public ID's as 40% Conservative, some 39% moderate, and only 21% Liberal.

Its the "Fiscal" issues that are killing us, on the Social issues. State by State polling, that 538 link, shows openess on the part of the American people to begin embracing LBGT civil-rights.

ITS AT THE LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL WHERE OUR MOVEMENT WILL BEGIN TO GAIN TRACTION. Starting with the smaller issues.

State by State, whether Blue or Red, the voting public disapproves OVERWHEMINGLY when you phrase the question as gay marriage. Change the question to civil unions and "Unions" garner across the board approval at about 55%.

Theres also an interesting posting within that 538 link in terming the marriage as a "positive or negative right." Change the gay marriage wording form "do same sex couples have the right to marry," to "does the government have the right to deny same sex couples the right to marry," and the polling almost reverses itself. Close to 50% of the voting public believes that the Gov. dosent have the intrinsnic right to deny the LGBT community the rights that they themselves enjoy.

My point is that the Federal Gov't isnt going to wave some magic wand and save us all. The old knock-knock joke comes to mind. Knock-knock. Whos there? The Federal Gov't. What did I do? Oh, dont worry... were the Feds and where here to help!!!

BS>>> start helping yourselves. City by city. County by county. State by state. Regions of states by regions...think Fed. Appeals Court Districts, THAN go Federal. Federal Legislation after a few years could be a foregone conclusion, if you say some 20 or more states already having existing laws on their books.

Think of the Negro Civil Rights movement. Negro was the PC phrase when the SCOTUS rendered Brown v Topeka.
It took over a decade and multiple Pres. Admin/sessions of Congress before the Black Civil Rights movement saw the passage of the various Civil Rights Act.

Okay enough on this for now...Mich'.

QuoteOur freedom of economic choice.

And what document states that? It is new one on me.

Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

The 'guarentee of a Republican form of government."

The Commerce protections afforded us by the U.C.C.

THe Patent Office.

The Gov't cant deprive one of property w/out just compensation.

Soldiers cant forcibly be quartered by you in your home.

The entire objects that Jefferson laid out in the Dec. of Ind.

The list goes on and on and on....

Not one word about economic freedom of choice. In fact they can take from your economic choice with taxes.

Your response is laughable.

Quote from: michellesofl on June 22, 2009, 02:21:49 PM
Your response is laughable.

Read "A theory of justice" By John Rawls

Quote from: Nero on June 21, 2009, 10:13:53 AM
Well, where would the civil rights movement have gone without protests and demonstrations? Nowhere.

Exactly!  But what is troubling to me is when there's a protest, rally or other form of public gathering trying to further a trans related cause, the number of people who show up is so small it barely gets a blip on the radar screen.

If we ever expect to be noticed there has to be a sufficiently large attendance at these gatherings.  From talking to those who won't attend, most say 'no way' to attending.  They don't want their face out there and risk being identified as TG. 

Many who were persecuted in the past had the fear of being identified as a revolutionary and risk the consequences.  To most individuals, the risk was not worth the possible gain.  They let the real revolutionaries forge the way until it was safe to show your face.  I think that is pretty much what we see today.  Look at how many here don't post pictures or use real names.  I've heard it said many times it's fear of being discovered that compels them to maintain their anonymity. 

Based on the numbers of trans people I see at rallys I think it's safe to say the majority of TGs are afraid to show their face.  If this is the case, how can we ever expect anyone to listen to us?

While it's great to have a certain few enjoy the audience of a politician on our behalf, those politicians will never give us anything but lip service until they see we can be a sizable voting block.

Until that time comes, maybe we need to focus on the civil rights issue for ALL discriminated-against Americans.  We need to let our politicians know we will not tolerate the majority denying basic human rights for the minority and push to have that issue enforced for the benefit of all.

Julie