For gawd sake, please don't whistle! 

Tweetle deedle dee...squirt!!! 

Quote from: Virginia Marie on June 20, 2009, 09:27:33 PM
Ever feel like some folks just like to argue?

Indeed! What this thread was, was a discussion / debate - but I too have a bad feeling it's going to turn into an argument real soon... 

It's always a shame when a lively debate degenerates into personal mud slinging.

I only hope that those involved can rise above it, can keep it a good clean debate.

A good clean debate involving toilets... 

Quote from: xsocialworker on June 20, 2009, 09:15:12 PM
My saying "I pass perfectly" was meant as a satirical statement. I don't know if anybody does.  As for using Republican as an insult----------I mean that and I am serious about that. These folks are not our friends.

As for defining the diff between a pre-op and a CD, what agency would do that? Homeland Security, some ancient Mullah?

And I NEVER miss Hardball, Keith , or Rachel on MSNBC . I follow that up with Jon Stewart and Colbert. This is because I have no life.

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Post Merge: June 20, 2009, 09:18:24 PM

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Posting a pic proves nothing because it might not be of me. Actually, I don't photograph so I have none.

I prefer the Mullah option, at least Shiia Muslim. I do not trust Homeland Security in issues like this.

Sunni extremists are not party people either

Quote from: Teknoir on June 21, 2009, 05:06:13 AM
Indeed! What this thread was, was a discussion / debate - but I too have a bad feeling it's going to turn into an argument real soon... 

It's always a shame when a lively debate degenerates into personal mud slinging.

I only hope that those involved can rise above it, can keep it a good clean debate.

A good clean debate involving toilets... 

Better get out the Lysol and a brush. We might need it 

As a way of explaining, bathrooms are a hot button issue. I have problems with the concept held by anybody, trans or not, that only post=ops should be considered authentic enough to access women's facilities. This is one of the rationals used by the HRC and Rep. Barney Frank when they supported a non-inclusive ENDA. Although they both claim to have changed, pre-ops in women's facilities is a prime excuse to deny TG folk equal rights. I hate to see this thinking from another TG in our own community. It is counter-productive. The religious right has used "men" in women's restrooms as a scare tactic in elections. If pre-ops are to be considered "male" under the law, then only those who can afford GRS are allowed passing privilidge. I don't know what our kind calls " an uncle tom", but any TG supporting bathroom segregation is one in my book. TG folk are at the cutting edge of a cultural revolution and can cannot advocate going backward. Sorry

Quote from: xsocialworker on June 20, 2009, 09:15:12 PM

Posting a pic proves nothing because it might not be of me. Actually, I don't photograph so I have none.

In other words: you're not 100% passable or even near that point.  It's rather obvious.  If you did happen to be such a diva or were even halfway proud of your appearance then you would have some pictures.  A camera phone, a camera, a webcam, anything to satisfy the vanity of an individual by bestowing others with a glimpse of your accomplishment.  It's true of every single individual I know who is decent to look at, and especially of transsexuals who are pleased with how they are fulltime.  Even if you had sent me a picture depicting you as someone less than gorgeous or passable, it wouldn't ever go beyond my inbox and noone would ever have known.

So, you're just another poster hiding scared behind an icon/avatar picture, too scared to pop out a smile for the camera.

Besides, passing has a lot more to do than simply physical appearance.  Everyone should know that.

When you are engaged in debate then when you make extraordinary claims then by rule of formal debate you support your statements by system of burden of proof.  I've been able to follow that system, even loosely, since I was 13 years old.  Surely it wouldn't be excessively difficult to do the same.

No mudslinging is involved here: just facts.

Religious right activists think that MTF-posties are still ''male''. They do not make difference between pre-op and post-op because sex is  a birthgift from God.

I guess it boils down to some simple facts,

- if you are a GG and afraid a man in the ladies' room you are using poses a physical threat to you

- if you are offended by a person who presents to you as a gender opposite the one the bathroom is designated for

- if you are uncomfortable sharing the bathroom with the opposite gender

... there will always be a bathroom debate.

In the mean time, be courteous and considerate towards those you share public bathrooms, regardless of gender presentation.

Julie

Only persons having problems with me inside the restroom have been the oldest women when I have had passing problems probably. All who genuinly identify female and live in that role should be allowed to use women's restrooms.

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Post Merge: June 21, 2009, 12:02:13 PM

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Here the arguments againts GLBT-civili rights are usually relating to arguments that  ''they are idea from the Soviet Union'' not for religion.

This is not meant to be mean or bellicose, but for someone who claims to be well versed in debate and reason, you have a number of possibly fallacious assumptions and logical lapses in this post, Toni.

Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
In other words: you're not 100% passable or even near that point.  It's rather obvious. 

Yes, it is rather obvious, especially since she already said that she was being sarcastic about being 100% passable.

Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
Even if you had sent me a picture depicting you as someone less than gorgeous or passable, it wouldn't ever go beyond my inbox and noone would ever have known.

And how is she to know this for sure? Because you always go out of your way to be disarming and reassuring? No, you're a scrapper. You're fierce. You take a side and defend it, even if everyone is against you. But when you take on that role, don't expect the opposition to automatically trust you. I sure as heck wouldn't until/unless I had a lot more to go on.

Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
So, you're just another poster hiding scared behind an icon/avatar picture, too scared to pop out a smile for the camera.

Maybe she's just being circumspect. Maybe she is protecting her job. Maybe she doesn't want to post pictures until she feels that she has fully transitioned. Maybe she doesn't own a camera. Maybe she doesn't even LIKE cameras.

Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AMBesides, passing has a lot more to do than simply physical appearance.  Everyone should know that.

If passing isn't based solely on personal appearance, why do YOU want a picture, ostensibly to base your appraisal of her passing ability on a two-dimensional image? (Yeah, I know physical appearance is a big part of it, and a pic would be nice. But still, think of what you miss. And pictures can be dishonest or doctored.)

By the way, I agree that "passing" (gawd, I hate that word) is based on more. I'm not taking issue with that.

Quote from: Toni on June 21, 2009, 08:29:47 AM
If you did happen to be such a diva or were even halfway proud of your appearance then you would have some pictures.  A camera phone, a camera, a webcam, anything to satisfy the vanity of an individual by bestowing others with a glimpse of your accomplishment.  It's true of every single individual I know who is decent to look at, and especially of transsexuals who are pleased with how they are fulltime.

I don't know whether I'm "decent to look at," but some people just don't take pictures. I seem to be passing pretty well everywhere but the gay part of town (I think most of us know how that goes), but I still have no pictures of MYself after I started presenting as male full time. In fact, I don't want to take any pics of myself at all, except that a long-distance friend requested some. I guess I'll oblige him...in a couple of months, after I've had a chance to pick up a camera phone. But if he hadn't asked, I might very well be happy to continue as I was. People think I'm a barbarian for not taking pictures--and for other reasons, I suspect--but I just don't. I don't have pictures of my cats, my friends, or even of my partner (now ex) of TWENTY YEARS.

Well, there's an explanation for my lack of pics. The short answer--and this covers my lack of pics for everyone--is that I'm lazy. The long answer--and this covers my lack of pics of myself--is that I'm trans. Around puberty, I (understandably, I think) became incredibly camera-shy. I wasn't a troll; I just had to live in the wrong body. So I got in the habit of avoiding the camera. Apart from ID photos, the last verified picture of me was taken some fifteen years ago. And I don't know what I did with that pic. Isn't it possible that someone else on the planet (maybe xsocialworker) is in the same boat?

Toni, I find it problematic that you frequently make sweeping generalizations. They work fine until ONE person comes along and punches ONE little hole in your balloon. You might want to rethink the strategy. And I wish you would take on my earlier question in this thread about cisgender people who don't pass in their own bathrooms. It was a legitimate question and a pertinent one, and I was interested to see your response.

Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PM
Yes, it is rather obvious, especially since she already said that she was being sarcastic about being 100% passable.

Let's quote her then...

Quotecamaflage and conformity? Kinda like passing for Aryan in 30"s Berlin? Not everybody can be as fortunate as yourself ( or myself for that matter) and be 100% passable.
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 10:15:12 pmAs for passing, although I passed perfectly from day one-Who is going to be the passing police ? I guess the devil's in the details

Two statements made, one after another, both self-absorbed wishy wash.  That's vanity right there, and I called BS.

And how is she to know this for sure? Because you always go out of your way to be disarming and reassuring? No, you're a scrapper. You're fierce. You take a side and defend it, even if everyone is against you. But when you take on that role, don't expect the opposition to automatically trust you. I sure as heck wouldn't until/unless I had a lot more to go on.

Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PMIf passing isn't based solely on personal appearance, why do YOU want a picture, ostensibly to base your appraisal of her passing ability on a two-dimensional image?  (Yeah, I know physical appearance is a big part of it, and a pic would be nice. But still, think of what you miss. And pictures can be dishonest or doctored.)

She was the one tootin her own horn.  "passing perfectly" implies a degree of passing both in appearance and behavior.

Quote from: Arch on June 21, 2009, 01:24:17 PMI wish you would take on my earlier question in this thread about cisgender people who don't pass in their own bathrooms. It was a legitimate question and a pertinent one, and I was interested to see your response.

I find it highly unlikely that even a cisgender individual living in his/her preferred role would not pass at least on some level, especially considering all the pharmaceutical and surgical windows open to any other individual.

How sad, this "I pass better"  crap!

  What's gone wrong here?  Susan?
This really should be all about having mind and body in congruence, not about being more passable than the other mtf, or prettier, better, etc.
  Before access to one another via internet, we had NO connection to one another.  Now that we do, why beat each other up?
  Am I wrong, or aren't these forums about information, support,  and  .....hmmm.....support??

Just my own pee-vish thoughts.


Bev

I know a lot of people don't like to hear it but its true Toni is right. It is a cruel world and is what it is. If you pass you can use the ladies room but if not and you use it be prepared to see the local jail or have some good old boys go burning Mississippi on you. It sucks but it is the way things are. And as far as the I pass better thing it's fun to be cocky about that sometimes. I myself am totally guilty of that sort of behavior myself, it just shows you have confidence in yourself. Sorry to anyone this offends but hay I didn't write the rules and I don't see them changing anytime soon either.

Who said anything about, "I pass better?"

Since no one did, then why the heck are people making up statements about it?

hey Bev said it, but i was also thinking it. did not mean to put words in anyones mouth

Quote from: Ladyrider on June 20, 2009, 01:33:11 PM
MtF CD's are not female and should not be in a female only facility.

-={LR}=-

Regardless of what gender they might be, it isn't safe for a M2F CD to use the men's room when presenting as female.

Z

noppers but the ladies room could also get you into trouble or killed as well.