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Brains, ->-bleeped-<-, etc.

Started by Nicky, June 17, 2009, 08:10:21 PM

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Nicky

It always surprises me that whilst many of us believe that transexuality is a brain thing i.e. mtfs have brain 'structure' very similar to other females, nobody really makes the link that if certain factors can cause your brain to develop in one way or another i.e. male or female, then why not various shades of in-between? It is logical when you consider the various shades and forms the human body can take. For example, men tend to be taller yet we have men shorter than women. If your brain can become masculanised from a female base, then it makes sense that it could get stuck half way.

We have regions of the brain that may account for gender identity, regions to do with sexuality, regions to do with behaviour, regions to do with body shape and so on. The factors which transgender brains (assuming this is what 'causes' ->-bleeped-<-) probably can affect all of these things. But there is no reason why they would impact on them equally. I guess what I am saying is they often seem to be linked i.e. a mtf is likely to want to look like a woman, behaves like a woman, desire a female body etc.. But sometimes they are not linked. We get people who are 'trans' in some aspects and not so much others - an example might be a cross dresser or a tomboy.

What does this mean? I guess this 'linkedness' accounts for why most people are either male or female and tend to dress and look and act like 'males' or 'females'. Because this linkedness may not be hard and fast it would also account for the huge range of gender queer people. Perhaps it even accounts for something like homosexuality where you often see gay male stereotype as being rather feminin (linkness aspect again).  I guess it is a unifying theory.

It makes the existance of non-binaries not only plausable (we do exist so there is no doubt there anyway), but perhaps you could also predict our existance in absence of evidence and the range and forms we could take.
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NicholeW.

Actually, Nicky, those ideas and thoughts have been around for quite some time. And seem just about right.

That they often aren't "accepted" by some transsexuals and/or former transsexuals is what seems to keep discussions of that sort of thing down.

I suppose it's a lot like if most people believed in flat earth but you had the mathematical proof that earth was round and had fashioned a pendulum, like Foucault's to show that it spun as well. Well, the flat earthers wouldn't accept the ideas most likely as belief usually trumps reason and sense in those sorts of discussions. :)
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Nicky

Yeah, I guess these ideas have been around for quite some time. Just felt like trying to distill some of them out and organise my own thinking. So much of the brain stuff is academic and technical sounding, perhaps putting it in lay-andro terms would be useful. The Androgyne forum seemed a little flat lately and many of the regulars seem to be absent so wanted to spark some debate or interest. Maybe we have said all that needs to be said for the moment...





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tekla

I strongly doubt that there is 'male' brain, or a 'female' brain, there are aptitudes that may be present in one group more than the other, however how much of that is some genetics deal, and how much is a social cultural deal, we don't know.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Nicky

I think as you said there are aptitudes. I would call it a predisposition to certain behaviour (which perhaps manifests in different ways depending on the envrionment the person is raised in). Bit like some people are prone to lung cancer, but would only get it if they smoke. Some people are not prone to lung cancer and would need to smoke an awful lot to get it.
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Chaunte

Quote from: tekla on June 17, 2009, 08:49:10 PM
I strongly doubt that there is 'male' brain, or a 'female' brain, there are aptitudes that may be present in one group more than the other, however how much of that is some genetics deal, and how much is a social cultural deal, we don't know.

Actually, there are male & female brains.  For the mtf community, the center that controls gender identity never morphed from female to male.  (Female is the base pattern that all animals, including humans, start with.)  The same thing appears to hold for sexual identity among gay males.

The gene that appears to trigger being trans or gay requires a hormonal blip about 10 weeks into gestation.

Shauna                                                                                                           
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Autumn

Quote from: Shauna Marie on June 17, 2009, 09:50:50 PM
Actually, there are male & female brains.  For the mtf community, the center that controls gender identity never morphed from female to male.  (Female is the base pattern that all animals, including humans, start with.)  The same thing appears to hold for sexual identity among gay males.

The gene that appears to trigger being trans or gay requires a hormonal blip about 10 weeks into gestation.

Shauna                                                                                                         

Do you have a concise article regarding this? I was aware of it, but could use the resource in the near future.
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Janet_Girl

Well of course there are shades of gender.  Some may swing more to the feminine side, some to the masculine side.  Just as the shades of sexuality.  I think that is more of wiring within the brain, than aptitude or predisposition. 

Does that change anything really?  We all seem to agree on the basis of the discussion, may be not on the terminology.

Janet
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Cindy

I'll try and look up the articles when I go back to work, I'm on a weeks holiday!! Only had to go to work twice so far!!!
There is quite a literature on masculinisation of the brain during gestation. There is also some work, including a paper published in Nature (very big impact factor) demonstrating a link to homosexuality and brain structure.

However, a bit like the intelligence debate there is also an environmental factor. And has been debated before, a wealth factor. i.e. if I'm straving in XXX I'm less likely to be concerned about my sexuality.

There are a number of animals that change their sex according to enviromental conditions. Most, I belive are fish, I don't mean creatures like seahorses that take on roles that we define as being male or female. But thay chage to sperm producers and egg producers as needed.

One thing I have learned about neurology since my wife recieved a severe brain injury, is that we know next to nothing about how the brain works.

Cindy



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Eva Marie

Quote from: Autumn on June 17, 2009, 10:42:26 PM
Do you have a concise article regarding this? I was aware of it, but could use the resource in the near future.

I'd like to see this resource as well just for my own edification.

There are so many things that can and do go wrong in the womb. We have all kinds of terrible birth defects ranging from cleft palette to autism and more. No one disputes that these conditions happened in the 9 months before birth.

And as it has been said before, we're all girls at conception. So it seems very plausible to me that being trans can certainly come from something that happened (or didn't happen) in the womb.
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Kendall

I believe one of the main study is the BSTc neuron study. Based off the results of studies of men, women, gay men, and mtf. I don't know of any non-binary neuron study having ever been attempted.



here is one of the pages showing the study. http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
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KYLYKaHYT

ƃuoɹʍ llɐ ʇno əɯɐɔ ʇɐɥʇ
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Steph

Quote from: Nichole on June 17, 2009, 08:38:38 PM
...
That they often aren't "accepted" by some transsexuals and/or former transsexuals is what seems to keep discussions of that sort of thing down.

I suppose it's a lot like if most people believed in flat earth but you had the mathematical proof that earth was round and had fashioned a pendulum, like Foucault's to show that it spun as well. Well, the flat earthers wouldn't accept the ideas most likely as belief usually trumps reason and sense in those sorts of discussions. :)

I'm not Androgyne however I guess I could be classed as one of those TS Nichole describes and so as a "former" TS and I think with other TS's, it's logical that they think that way.

Society in general see's things in black and white.  Rightly or wrongly the grey area's, those "various shades of in-between" don't fit in with the norms, and I'm sure that people here would easily be able to identify many of those grey area's.  Realistically I guess that TS's are a grey area themselves, so it's not surprising that we have grey area's in the community represented here.

One of the reasons, maybe the main the main reason, is that TS's are MtF or FtM and need to be apart of, fit into, blend in to society not stand out from it.  So, as in my case, with regards to this issue, I see things in black and white and one might even say that these thoughts would be present in many if not all TS brains.

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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NicholeW.

I agree that there's mostly black & white thinking by a lot of TSes and post-TSes, LR. And maybe there are great reasons in a lot of minds and hearts about why we should or shouldn't choose one or another. Although a lot of the received wisdom may be of less value than we think.

from Men In Black:

QuoteEdwards: Why the big secret? People are smart. They can handle it.
Kay: A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.



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Steph

Quote from: Nichole on June 24, 2009, 08:34:12 AM
I agree that there's mostly black & white thinking by a lot of TSes and post-TSes, LR. And maybe there are great reasons in a lot of minds and hearts about why we should or shouldn't choose one or another. Although a lot of the received wisdom may be of less value than we think.

from Men In Black:

True Nichole.  I don't mean to intrude on this topic that was raised as a Androgyne concern, however,I believe that given that TS's face a tremendous amount of discrimination, hate, etc. during their coming out/transition phase it's comforting for us to simply melt away into society adopting that black and white thing that is male or female.  Of course there are exceptions that see post ops crusading for the cause, but for the most part we melt away along with our past trials a tribulations.  Life is grand :)

-={LR}=-
Enjoy life and be happy.  You won't be back.

WARNING: This body contains nudity, sexuality, and coarse language. Viewer discretion is advised. And I tend to rub folks the wrong way cause I say it as I see it...

http://www.facebook.com/switzerstephanie
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Nicky

Your welcome to intrude and your comments highlight an interesting difference with an idealised non-binary 'transition' and a binary one.

I think many androgynes would want to melt away too (excluding the need to stand out through share force of personality), but a non-binary transition tends to make you float to the top. It is a bit like trading one set of problems with another - you end up standing out as a challenge to the norm. I some ways you could look at it as being a bit like a transexual moving from the start of transition to the end but in reverse. But then this is speaking of an idealised transition within current society. In practice many transexuals don't have it easy and are very visible after transition, while many androgynes gender queerness is mild enough to pass relatively unnoticed.

BRAINS!
I always remember this scene from a zombie movie where this girls now zombified boyfriend corners her and pleads with her to let him eat her brains saying how spicey they are. She decides this is perfectly reasonable, gives in and tells him to go ahead. Not sure why that sticks in my head...it was strangely erotic to my teenaged mind.
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Eva Marie

Quote from: Nicky on June 24, 2009, 07:35:35 PM
BRAINS!
I always remember this scene from a zombie movie where this girls now zombified boyfriend corners her and pleads with her to let him eat her brains saying how spicey they are. She decides this is perfectly reasonable, gives in and tells him to go ahead. Not sure why that sticks in my head...it was strangely erotic to my teenaged mind.

I'm thinking of young frankenstein, and abby-normal  :D
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Pica Pica

The trouble with any gender talk, especially when it overlaps the realms of science and medicine, there is always another agenda being played out somewhere, so it's hard to objectively trust a lot of it.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Nicky

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Cindy

I'm a public servant and scientist so of course you can trust me :laugh:
Cindy
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