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Is our present passive method working?

Started by Julie Marie, June 18, 2009, 11:50:52 AM

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lisagurl

QuoteI think it's safe to say the majority of TGs are afraid to show their face.

It has nothing to do with showing my face. It has to do with being a part of a bunch of crazies. I do not participate in any groups such as church, clubs or concerts most public gatherings are sicking and I would not want to be a part of them. I prefer my freedom to do as I please and not be in a mass mentality.

The civil rights demonstrations did little. It was people's votes and letters that changed the laws. But the changed laws did little to change people's attitudes. It is one on one friendships that change people's attitudes. Demonstrating only polarizes people.
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Sandy

Quote from: lisagurl on June 22, 2009, 03:58:18 PM
It has nothing to do with showing my face. It has to do with being a part of a bunch of crazies. I do not participate in any groups such as church, clubs or concerts most public gatherings are sicking and I would not want to be a part of them. I prefer my freedom to do as I please and not be in a mass mentality.

Might I ask what you do enjoy IRL or do you spend most of you time staring at this stupid screen?

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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lisagurl

I live next to a national park, hike a lot, read, I have two in college, take care of the estate, live with a friend, garden, cook, help the neighbors, visit friends, and sometimes consult,  I am retired.
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tekla

Ok, for the record, I'm not even that all fired against riots and mayhem, as they do seem to draw attention.  And if not 'as American as apple pie' they for sure are at least as American as the Boston Tea Party.

It's kinda sad - pathetic really - that so few Americans have any idea of how this government works, or the history of how it got to exactly this point.  Though, I suppose in some defense, there has been a concerted effort to keep most people ignorant, and no doubt, its working.  But you know, Obama can not say something have it become a law.  He is a president, not a dictator.  Anyone who thought he was a 'savior' as opposed to say, 'a politician' was sure missing something.  Hell, I never thought he would even be 'good' I just thought he would be 'less bad.'  And all he has to do to win re-election is be less bad then the other person, which at this point looks pretty easy.  So I'm pretty sure they came in looking for the long haul, the full 8 years, and have some sort of timetable as to when they are going to propose things.  And, I have to give them some credit, they seem pretty hard to sway when it comes down to changing that timing.

He is smart though, and I'm sure that unlike Bush he has learned some lessons from history, to wit: going after these issues early (very early) in the life of the Administration killed the Clinton deal from the get go.  So I'm sure he is not all hot and heavy to go down that same road.

That, and its not hard to look around and find other problems, more serious problems that deserve attention and work at this juncture.

And, its often not even the Congress with the power, it's the states.  When 50% of the States have this passed, Congress will go along, but without State consent, what exactly is the Federal Government going to do to enforce, regulate and moderate this situation?  It could turn out that the Feds enforcing 'trans rights' or whatever will be about as effective as the war on pot.  Smashing success that, eh what?  35 years of the war on drugs have made drugs a lot harder to find right?

And, people are now talking about - finally - legalizing it.  Why?  Well because several states have basically opted out of the war on drugs.

Most rights are local.  Several places did the trans rights back in the late 80s/early 90s, and have moved on.  For my part, federalist that I am, in so far as I'm cool being in SF, then I don't care as much about what is going on in Ohio or Mississippi.  We solved the problem here, I'm sure they could do the same there if people were willing to go out and work on it.

But no, we want the Federal Mommy to come in and do for us what we are too lazy to do for ourselves, and that's just not going to work out in the end.

Now, for some points.

That means those who live a dual life might feel they are risking exposure if they gather in the streets in protest.
Wow, if that's all you feel you are going to risk being involved in street action protests then you've never been near one have you?  You are going to risk a lot more, jail, violence, and perhaps even death.  Remember, the U.S. Army/National Guard has NEVER not followed an order to shoot at Americans.  If you are really going to the barricades - as opposed to some yuppie lunch spot - be ready for anything, for everything.

Could it be he and his backers have no intent to honor the campaign promises he made?  Could it be he is no friend of the LGBT community?
Could it be that they know well that the LGBT folk are not going to head over to the Sara Palin camp?  And that he has not done it 'all' in six months, he has made some moves in the right direction, and I think the incremental approach, drop by drop - he's been pretty good at keeping up a constant barrage so that the right can't get one topic nailed down before he's moved on and gone through five more.

But I think what really kinda amazes me, to the point I can be amazed anymore, is exactly where was this huge, public trans movement that helped Obama get elected? Hell, I think more than one girl in here wants to transition to be Phyllis Schlafly, so its not like we present a united front.  I didn't see a huge public mass of transpersons standing up - and raising money - for Obama.  Or are you just trying to ride the LG coattails once again without doing any real work toward that end?

No, I think the mass of people who voted for Obama voted for him because he was not Bush, or Bush light.  Face it, Bush sucked so bad he made it impossible for white guy to be elected, and if it were not Obama, it would have been Hillary.  Matter of fact, if Obama is followed by a woman (highly likely) and then a Hispanic (also likely) we could be a solid generation out of having a white guy president, that's how much Bush sucked.

Still, I think there are far more important topic and issues that need to be addressed.  Not that I think it will be done the right way.  But still, some progress in that general direction might be nice.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on June 23, 2009, 12:01:40 PM
But I think what really kinda amazes me, to the point I can be amazed anymore, is exactly where was this huge, public trans movement that helped Obama get elected? Hell, I think more than one girl in here wants to transition to be Phyllis Schlafly, so its not like we present a united front.  I didn't see a huge public mass of transpersons standing up - and raising money - for Obama.  Or are you just trying to ride the LG coattails once again without doing any real work toward that end?

Being trans entails crossing the gender lines in presentation.  To say trans people are once again trying to ride the coattails of gays & lesbians is to assume there is no crossing of the gender lines in the self described gays and lesbians.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most gays who are identified as being gay are identified as such because their presentation is more feminine than what is socially acceptable.  The same goes for lesbians who present masculinely.  They have crossed the gender lines and are therefore transgender individuals.

I cannot help that many of them refuse to accept that but I do understand why.  The TG stigma is so negative, even to self proclaimed gays & lesbians, they want nothing to do with it.  But that doesn't change the fact that many gays and lesbians are also TG.

So those of us who are "riding on the coattails" of LGs are actually doing them a favor because most of them who face discrimination experience that because they present outside socially acceptable gender norms.  That's one reason why non-TG inclusive ENDA made no sense at all.  Those who didn't want it were in denial that there were plenty of TGs in their ranks.

No, we are not riding on their coattails, we are all in this together because there's a common thread that runs through us all.  The media and the GL groups may call their gatherings gay & lesbian but once you look at who is there, based on presentation, you will see plenty of people crossing the gender lines.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

Well I did see LG groups supporting Obama.  I did see LG Obama fundraisers.  Where is the T?  Where is the T group with a political action wing?  Where is the T group that was out organizing?  I mean we put all those LGBT deals together (much to the chagrin of many in here by the way) for Centers, and for vague ID reasons, but group to group they tend to be far more specific.  I didnt' see any Trans for Obama bumper stickers, hell even the pot smoking Deadheads in SF held a very large -and pot smoke filled - Obama fundraiser, but the trans contingent?  Nada.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: tekla on June 23, 2009, 05:10:32 PM
Well I did see LG groups supporting Obama.  I did see LG Obama fundraisers.  Where is the T?  Where is the T group with a political action wing?  Where is the T group that was out organizing?  I mean we put all those LGBT deals together (much to the chagrin of many in here by the way) for Centers, and for vague ID reasons, but group to group they tend to be far more specific.  I didnt' see any Trans for Obama bumper stickers, hell even the pot smoking Deadheads in SF held a very large -and pot smoke filled - Obama fundraiser, but the trans contingent?  Nada.

I guess you didn't read my post.  The T is right there under your nose.  You're doing exactly what the media and everyone else is doing.  If it's not SEPARATE and IDENTIFIED as T then it doesn't exist.  L....G.....B.....T.  It's all ONE group because the elements that make up a single group can be found in any other group.  And the T can be found in all of the other three groups.  You can't separate it. 

Do you think each and every contributor from the LGBT community was strictly gay or lesbian and nothing else?  That nobody that was trans contributed?   We campaigned and participated and contributed within the LGBT community because we are part of it.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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lisagurl

Well I am "T" and do not agree and would never be a part of LGB. I do not engage in any sexual activities.
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tekla

No, I'm doing what the LG community does, no people, no money, no power. And see, there you go with Lisa.  Hardly a united front.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: lisagurl on June 23, 2009, 06:15:28 PM
Well I am "T" and do not agree and would never be a part of LGB. I do not engage in any sexual activities.

LGB is not about sex, it's about sexual orientation.  Believe it or not there are gays and lesbians who do not engage in sex, just as there are straights who do not.  As my grandmother would say, "Get your mind out of the toilet."

As for your preference not to be considered part of the LGBT community, that's your choice but it doesn't mean that millions of other Ts are not part of the community.

And as for the united front, I know plenty of Ts that are very active and participate regularly in educating the masses.  One defector does not make a rule. 

You two can go walk off hand and hand into the sunset agreeing about how there is no T community or whatever you want to believe but I have seen it, am active in it and will continue to be.  Maybe if people like you did the same we would begin to get better recognition.  But then again I wouldn't want anyone dissing LGB people for having sex.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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tekla

Isn't the Obama administration doing today what you accuse them of not doing?  Coming out with standards for trans discrimination in the Federal Government?  Could it be that they wanted to get it right and airtight for what is going to be a highly contested - in court at least - set of standards?

Perhaps you're just not used after 8 years of Clinton and 8 years of Bush of people in high office thinking and planning before they act.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl


gay
QuoteA person whose sexual orientation is to persons of the same sex.
A man whose sexual orientation is to men: an alliance of gays and lesbians.


Transsexual
QuoteOne who wishes to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex.
One who has undergone a sex change.
A transsexual definition has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

LGBT is an organization that wants rights of sexual orientation. In other words sexual relations.


I have no interest in people's rights of sexual relations.

I do care about discrimination of gender presentation.
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Alyssa M.

Quote from: lisagurl on June 24, 2009, 09:39:38 AM
I have no interest in people's rights of sexual relations.

And you expect anyone to have any interest in your rights?  ::)
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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tekla

Well we all ought to listen to her, after all we all want to be like Mississippi don't we.  Hell, they are the fattest state in the Union, and beating out Kansas and Iowa was no mean feat.  An infant mortality rate that is equal to Libya or Thailand.  Second to the last in overall health - only Louisiana with the chemical industry is less healthy, and the poorest educated of all 50 states.  And the 3rd poorest being beaten out by Louisiana and D.C. Hell, we all ought to be following those examples.

And people think that California is crazy.  Yeesh.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

QuoteAnd you expect anyone to have any interest in your rights? 

No I do not expect anyone to be interested in what I am interested in. The democracy does not allow for minorities demands.  This country is more of a federal republic. But still a majority of people can and do make it difficult for the others. Then there is the money factor. Corporations have some rights as people but not the responsibilities.

Perhaps we need a new form of government where rights are earned with responsibilities. That way the more you contribute in time and energy to society the more rights you have.

Post Merge: June 24, 2009, 02:47:31 PM

QuoteAnd people think that California is crazy.  Yeesh.

When you can get the people of CA to be responsible and get them to accept sexual rights you might just have a majority. Fat chance when they can not evenlive within a budget.
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Alyssa M.

You say you'll change the Constitution? Well, you know, we all want to change your head.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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