Okay, when you invite a friend to have lunch with you and your friends, please ask before you link hands to pray for the blessing of your food. Some people don't like that. Maybe your friend is non-religious or affiliated with a different spectrum of religious beliefs, and he/she doesn't WANT to tell you; for myself, my atheism is the LEAST important aspect of my personality and NOT something I discuss often irl, but I feel very dishonorable and contaminated if I am pressed into affirming a god that I don't believe exists. I don't like being put into the dilemma of either compromising my principles or outing myself at a VERY inappropriate time.

There are also a lot of RELIGIOUS people who don't believe in that particular ritual, and perhaps they would rather pray in their own way. Some people are just uncomfortable with being touched, PERIOD.

Either way, don't presume upon another person. For my part, I would not want to speak to you for a while over that.

OK, so don't accept the invitation, duh.  Do people need permission from atheists to pray now?  Yeesh, I thought I was harsh.

The one good thing brought about by Obama is the "fist bump." Since I started "bumping" instead of "shaking" I haven't gottn sick. Thank you Barack.

Just tell people you dont shake or hold hands with people. Swine flu prevention type thing.

It's called a 'DAP' only critically white folk and Fox News (also critically white) call it a fist bump.  As for swine flu, wash you hands.

No, what set this off was when, after someone I knew invited me out to dinner, and I politely declined when the people next to me tried to take hold of my hand for their prayer. I didn't make a statement about my beliefs, and for all ANYONE there knows, except that one person, I just don't do the hand-holding thing.

Well, the next time I met that person, she was ripping on me for setting out to embarrass her in front of her friends, and she claimed that I was doing it to retaliate against her over some kind of slight. I was told what an awful, mean-spirited person I am for a good thirty minutes, and I am SEETHING over that.

I am not going to be as non-vocal over this sort of thing in the future. When someone makes a grab for my hand, I am going to announce right there at the table that I'm a Taoist. Everyone wants to strike up arguments with an atheist, and then they proclaim that we're evil and hateful if we DARE to defend our views. Nobody argues with a Taoist. Heck, practically every decent or helpful thing I've done relates to Taoist principles. Consider me a convert. I've just had quite enough of people who want to ARGUE!!!

Ummm, for a Taoist you sure didn't learn much.  Where in the Tao does it even come close to suggesting such a course of action?  Indeed, that action was a complete violation of the Tao for you were setting up resistance where there was none by your own willful action.  Which, deep in its heart, is the ONE THING the Tao is trying to prevent you from doing.

The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners...
She is detached from all things;
that is why she is one with them...

The world is sacred.
It can't be improved.
If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it.
If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it.
 

Oh yeah, I forgot the most important one.
Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men
doesn't try to force issues

Tekla, it apparently wasn't an invitation; it was an imposition. And Sigma isn't saying s/he actually IS a Taoist; s/he's planning to PROFESS Taoism the next time something like this happens.

And for the record, yeah, I feel that it's extremely rude of people to grab me or hug me when they aren't on touching terms with me. IMHO, just grabbing people is an imposition. I mean, even with a handshake, virtually everyone OFFERS the hand and doesn't simply grab yours. Simply grabbing negates the original point of the exercise, which was to indicate one's status as a non-threat.

I've been told that when I'm in someone else's home, the polite thing for ME to do is just go along with whatever prayer or prandial ritual the other person practices.

I have very mixed feelings about this; as an atheist, if I invite someone into my own home, I don't automatically expect them NOT to pray before they eat, and I don't tell them that they can't pray. I feel that such an expectation is rude and presumptuous, so I try to anticipate that other people will have practices that are different to mine. As long as they don't try to rope me into those practices, we can get along.

When I'm in public or in my own home, I'm told, it's okay to decline the prayer. Well, gee, thanks. Mighty big of you.

The thing is, I've found that a lot of theists (not all by any means) ASSUME that everyone else is into prayer and don't even think about the possibility that someone else might not want to pray. And when the non-practitioner declines, no matter how politely, there's a sh*tstorm of disapproval.

It's a tough problem, but I think the bottom line is that people should be aware that we are not all alike--and I feel that we shouldn't try to force our practices on others or give them a hard time when they don't participate in someone else's religious ritual.

Just treat religious practices as if they were sex acts!!!!!!!! (Well, that might not work ALL the time...)

Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 12:11:06 PM
Ummm, for a Taoist you sure didn't learn much.  Where in the Tao does it even come close to suggesting such a course of action?  Indeed, that action was a complete violation of the Tao for you were setting up resistance where there was none by your own willful action.  Which, deep in its heart, is the ONE THING the Tao is trying to prevent you from doing.

Perhaps you should work on being "detached from all things."

I can identify with not wanting to hold anothers hand. Not being very spiritual anyway. Holding hands while praying isn't going to get anyone closer to heaven or hell. If it makes the other person feel better that's good. Go somewhere and hold all the hands they want. The holding hands thing seems to be more common among persons who are insecure with themselves. Just an opinion.

Really.  I thought the holding hands, touching each other, all that physical  contact stuff was just humans acting like humans in the best ways.

And if you are an atheist, then you don't think any of this is real, and hence, what they are doing can't possibly matter.  You can that time to think on NASA photographs of deep space or imagine them naked, or whatever you want.  If you are Taoist (one of the worlds great classic religions BTW, so you can't be an atheist and a Taoist at the same time - its just a very different kind of imagining then the West ever applied to theology) then setting up this kind of resistance is exactly what the Tao is warning against.  At the very center of the way, the #40 says:  Yielding is the way of the Tao.

People don't argue with Taoists, because a true Taoist would never argue.  There is nothing to argue about.  Hence, no argument. 

It was the original 'go along to get along / when in Rome do as the Romans do' kind of outlook.  And, when it comes to getting along in the real world, there's a lot to be said for that approach. 

As religious statements go, the meal prayer is on the inoffensive side.  No one is trying to convert you, or make you say anything.  Its more of a route social routine, like I said, think of something else.  Or just substitute gratitude for god and get on with it - for we all have things to be thankful for, grateful for, to send out good thoughts about and all that.

Quote from: Arch on June 27, 2009, 04:48:11 PMI've been told that when I'm in someone else's home, the polite thing for ME to do is just go along with whatever prayer or prandial ritual the other person practices.

Oh, I would have to be at a family reunion or eating dinner with the family of a VERY trusted, respected friend to go along with that. At the family reunions, it's almost necessary because we're dealing with a very large number of people; if three people in a row were to decline, it would mess up the whole thing. Besides, the dinner prayer itself is a kind of social event where people spend a lot of time joking around, and it's entertaining enough that I don't really mind all that much; Mainline, moderate Baptists are the shiz at those reunions, so I ain't gonna complain. The relaxed, upbeat atmosphere makes me feel a lot less anxious and paranoid. In this case, it was four people, three of whom had known each ther for years, sitting around a small, square table, and there wasn't enough social energy there to make it worth my while to humor it. It really does make the difference, really.

I'm an atheist as well and understand.  Add people saying "Bless you" when you sneeze.  Creeps me out every time.

I'm not much for religion. But I like holding hands 

Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 09:27:27 PMAnd if you are an atheist, then you don't think any of this is real, and hence, what they are doing can't possibly matter.

It appears to matter to me. The emotion is not a rational one, but I am untroubled by this fact. My self-image is not hinged on believing that I am built out of syllogism and clever deductions. In fact, I believe that it would be foolish for me to aspire to anything of the sort. I am nine-tenths animal, nine-hundredths imagination, and only one-hundredth logical deduction.

I think that it would be polite for a Christian to show a bit of consideration toward the animal reactions of others. This makes it easier for us to get along. You would offer your hand to the person sitting next to you, not grab it. This less threatening gesture would be less likely to provoke a negative reaction. It is also more likely to result in an atheist "going along to get along" and "doing as the Romans do." I am uncertain as to why you feel that my position on this matter is illogical.

QuoteIf you are Taoist (one of the worlds great classic religions BTW, so you can't be an atheist and a Taoist at the same time

I think that this is possible by being exclusively Taoist. However, I am not sure that most Taoists are exclusively Taoists. In fact, it seems to be a national joke in China that you can tell a true Chinaman by his Taoist shoes, his Bhuddist clothing, and his Confucian hat. I do not think that this culture understands the idea that you should pronounce all other religions false simply because you see truth in one. I think that this is one of the more attractive aspects of their culture.

QuotePeople don't argue with Taoists, because a true Taoist would never argue.

A Taoist does argue. However, I think that Taoists prefer to wage their arguments by allowing others to have arguments with themselves. You always lose arguments that you have with yourself, and a good Taoist is likely to find the affair to be both entertaining and potentially enlightening. The reason that nobody argues with a Taoist is that you nearly always lose, and the Taoist nearly always finds a way to benefit from it. Eventually, you give up and simply have an amiable discussion, so you can both have an enjoyable evening.

Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 09:27:27 PM
Really.  I thought the holding hands, touching each other, all that physical  contact stuff was just humans acting like humans in the best ways.

Yeah, "all that physical contact stuff" is always a hoot. Tell that to my buddy who was raped four or five years ago. There are many different kinds of physical contact, not all of them good. And, like just about anything, physical contact causes different reactions in different people. One man's embrace can be another man's assault.

Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 09:27:27 PMAnd if you are an atheist, then you don't think any of this is real

I don't know what you mean by "this." This world? prayer? a deity?

Quote from: tekla on June 27, 2009, 09:27:27 PMand hence, what they are doing can't possibly matter. 

Matter to whom? To me? to themselves? to a deity? If people are off praying by themselves and don't include me in, then, yes, I don't care; and what they are doing doesn't matter to me. If they inflict the event on me, then it does matter to me.

If, however, you mean that their prayer has no power and doesn't matter to a deity (from my perspective, I presume), then that's a different issue that probably belongs on the religion forum.

The church I used to go to had people who liked to do the hand-holding thing. I guess it helps for some people. I don't really have an opinion on it. Except when someone holds my hand I get nervous and my fingers kind of twitch whether it's in prayer or anywhere else. I personally think that prayer is a time to be alone with God

I have nothing against normal hand holding though