I see so many women that dress like blokes, have their hair shaved practically to their scalps [older women are really guilty of this], and because they imitate men, they walk and talk like them. I don't understand why.  Are women losing their femininity because they want to be like men? That's a shame.  Maybe it's cultural but I like being feminine & looking like a girl because I'm a girl.  Simple as that.

You don't have to be feminine to be a woman.  There's nothing wrong with having more of a masculine side.  I don't think it's 'a shame' or a bad thing, people have the right to express themselves the way they wish.  You like being feminine because you like being feminine, not because you're a girl.  If it was 'because you're a girl,' EVERY woman would like being feminine.. and not all do.  But they still consider themselves girls.

Quote from: TamTam on July 02, 2009, 02:01:52 PM
You don't have to be feminine to be a woman.  There's nothing wrong with having more of a masculine side.  I don't think it's 'a shame' or a bad thing, people have the right to express themselves the way they wish.  You like being feminine because you like being feminine, not because you're a girl.  If it was 'because you're a girl,' EVERY woman would like being feminine.. and not all do.  But they still consider themselves girls.

I agree that every woman has a masculine side.  I do too.  But when a girl insists on imitating blokes  e.g.  looks, talks, walks, dresses, behaves like a man,  I've got to wonder if such behaviour is because she's making a social statement ["I want to be like men"] kind of thing or there are some TG tendencies there.

Or maybe she's just being herself?

As I said, woman doesn't have to equal feminine.

What do you say about men who are very feminine and flamboyant?

I used to work with a lot of women like that (in a para-military environment). Mannerisms and dress aside, they were still quite feminine in their attitude, at least among the other women. In that environment specifically, there was an expectation of them to act more like "one of the boys" just to be accepted. Even when they retire from there, they tend to keep their appearance less feminine because they don't want to bother taking any extra time to "femme up." I don't think they're trying to be like men at all though.

However, not every woman has a masculine side, despite theories to the contrary. I definitely don't have one and neither does my GF (or my mom, for that matter).

I'm always more than just a bit perplexed why the behaviors and preferences of other, when they are harming no one physically, mentally or spiritually are thought to be the business of other people.

Why must we be consistently pressing everyone toward the lowest common denominator where everyone MUST be the same.

Ok hun, heres my two cents  . I don't believe in true 'feminity.' It is only a social expression of a common series of predetermined 'traits' that people use to label others in order to have something tangible to discuss. I am who I am, and I like what I like. If you want to call me feminine, so be it. It doesn't change what I like or who I am. I believe it goes all different ways but loose. If women want to present that way, I think it is more to do with what they prefer than anything to do with society at large.

Quote from: Valentina on July 02, 2009, 01:48:02 PM
I see so many women that dress like blokes, have their hair shaved practically to their scalps [older women are really guilty of this], and because they imitate men, they walk and talk like them. I don't understand why.  Are women losing their femininity because they want to be like men? That's a shame.  Maybe it's cultural but I like being feminine & looking like a girl because I'm a girl.  Simple as that.

Yes, but they still look like women despite the clothes and hairstyles. They have a bigger pelvis and usually a bigger butt regardless of image. We as Male to Females usually have the opposite problems.

I'm fine with women other than me and Starr being as butch as they want to be. It's entirely their own business. Their absolute right to be respected for who they are.

My hangup: A certain paranoia that they will bust on me for being too feminine. I've been wounded over that so many times, I wish I could shake it. I totally support women being their butch selves, if that's who they are, I just hope in turn they respect who I am. But I know that non-feminine women have been traumatized growing up, forced to be feminine girls against their nature. Ostracized and put down by the pretty girls' cliques for their rejection of gender conformity. I understand why they feel bitter resentment at having been subjected to that, and lash out at femmes like me. But I don't want to keep the abusiveness circulating, so I will not return evil for evil. I will absorb it and ground it without transmitting it to others. Let abuse stop on earth, and let it stop with me.

To me, feminine means soft, nurturing, mothering, not given to violence, verbal, more into relationships than sex, not overly aggressive.  But one of the most "non-feminine" attitudes I've noticed in women today is their language. I've come across so many women that cuss more, worse than any man I know. To me, it's one of the most disgusting things about some women today.

Quote from: Leslie on July 03, 2009, 03:23:36 PM
To me, feminine means....not overly aggressive.

Like picking on people, monopolising every bloody thread or telling peeps to take a hike when they don't like what we've got to say?   O la la..that "never" happens around here yeah right!

Quote from: Valentina on July 02, 2009, 01:48:02 PM
I see so many women that dress like blokes, have their hair shaved practically to their scalps [older women are really guilty of this], and because they imitate men, they walk and talk like them. I don't understand why.  Are women losing their femininity because they want to be like men? That's a shame.  Maybe it's cultural but I like being feminine & looking like a girl because I'm a girl.  Simple as that.

Are you talking about cis women or trans women?

Natal girls can get away with acting in a tomoyish way because they've been socialised as females from birth & they haven't passability concerns as most trans women do.  GG's can get away with a lot of things from being a tomboy to having very short hair, even a moustache in some cases.  For example peeps will never doubt that Sigourney Weaver, KD Lang, Laura Prepon, Sara Gilbert & other tomboyish women are female.  Trans women have not that kind of luck unless they transitioned young or have had extensive facial work & are very passable physically & facially (e.g. body language, voice, body frame, amongst other peculiarities).  So whilst a GG can get away with being a tomboy & look cute with her head shaved or baggy pants or & what not, most trans women can't. 

Quote from: TamTam on July 02, 2009, 02:01:52 PM
You don't have to be feminine to be a woman.  There's nothing wrong with having more of a masculine side.  I don't think it's 'a shame' or a bad thing, people have the right to express themselves the way they wish.  You like being feminine because you like being feminine, not because you're a girl.  If it was 'because you're a girl,' EVERY woman would like being feminine.. and not all do.  But they still consider themselves girls.

I agree completely! How you act doesnt necessarily need to be placed to a gender, such as Im the side of the tomboy videogame loving girl! But still like many girly things, just at the same time hobbies and prefrences are at a different direction than a frilly dress, my clothing of choice is a nice shirt, relatively loose pants (not skin tight but not falling off!)but i like having long hair, even with a hat on half the time hehe. Everyone is different, and that is what makes life so great! If a girl is acting "manly" then let her, dont let it phase you that a person prefers to live a different way, we all follow what makes us happy, never live to make others happy all the time or you risk your own happiness

Gender is more what you are and a genderal basic functioning of what you want and how you want to live and act, etc etc. but it isnt a defining factor of your entire life, nothing wrong with enjoying male things but being 100% happy in the girl body! i dispise the male form, i hate living it, but i love the hobbies, and so does my sister hehe

Why insist that they are trying to look masculine? Maybe they're just trying to be comfortable as themselves? ARen't we all trying to be ourselves around here? I'm a girl, but definitely not girly or feminine. I'm also not masculine either. I am me. Nobody should have to try to fit the mold that society says you should be. I admit, I wear some clothes that are 'men's' clothes, 'boy's' shoes (I have tiny feet, 4 or 5 boys, men's shoes are too big) and even when I was younger I would wear boy's clothes/shoes if I liked them! I don't think I'm trying to be masculine or anything, I'm just dressing how I feel comfortable. I also wear women's clothes and shoes, but loser fitting things. It just depends. I'm perfectly happy as I am, not trying to be feminine or masculine or whatever. Just me. I don't like labels, but if I had to label myself, I'd say I fit into "tomboy" the best, won't touch makeup (aside from nailpolish, love the stuff), Dress in baggy/ comfortable clothes and could care less from which department they were bought, I tend to go for the "cute and innocent" overall look, but I'm not afraid to get rough and tough with the boys.

I'm sure I'm not the only girl who feels like this. I doubt any girl wakes up and and thinks "Today I want to be manly, so I'm going to do bla bla bla" I take it as just doing what you feel is right for you. If you are happiest being very
stereotypically 'feminine', go for it! If you're happiest being very stereotypically 'masuline', go for it! If you're happiest being somewhere in the middle, go for it! What's right for one person, isn't right for everyone!

I've even had someone say to me "If I didn't know better, I would have thought you were a dyke" Uhm.. If I didn't know better, you don't know how to think before you speak! Ah well I got a good laugh out of it, and I suppose there are worse things they could have thought about me!

People who are comfy in their own skin present as they wish. I don't like people judging me, so I try not to judge others. But healthy debate is always welcome, at least to me.

I believe it was Carla from Les Boys in Kings Cross who said. " I'm more of a woman than you will ever have, and more of a man than you will ever be."
One of the best put down lines I've ever heard.

Cindy

Of all people to be complaining about other people's fashion choices, yeesh.  Perhaps you might also want to join the Hugh Hefner Modesty Campaign and the Jerry Garcia Just Say No To Drugs Patrol.

I don't think women with short hair are making a statment or trying to be manly.  Probably they are just relaxing into themselves.  How wonderful they can wear their hair as they please and wear the clothes they are comfortable in.  As a child of the 1950s, I know very well that people - women and men both - did not always have the option to dress and groom as they please.

We of all people should understand that people should be free to express themselves through their appearance as they please.  If a woman wants to wear cropped hair, fine.  If she wants to have butt-length hair and can manage it, fine.  As transgendered people, isn't one of our basic problems that we haven't been able to freely express our identity?

JMHO.

- Kate