Simple enough.

The Theory of Justice does not lie in a political system that we know. All have shown their faults. Socialism leaves little motivation for those who have nothing better to do than work.

Absolutely - as long as we're all different, there cannot be an ideal system.

A high-tech economy beats socialism any day of the week. It is a lot more satisfying, in the long-term, than undereducated fools who all complain that they are paid "chump change" in spite of the fact that their work could be performed better by well-trained chimps.

When a wealthy few control the means of production, so they poorer minority can work hard, get little money, have the fruits of their labor sold to another corrupt wealthy few and sold at a high price to the general public- something is terribly wrong.
In a socialist economy, the transition from capitalism to communism (or perhaps something better. Communism has it's flaws), workers control the means of production and we produce more of what we need, rather than producing what will make the ruling class the most money.

Quote from: Mazarine_Sky on September 27, 2009, 07:52:05 PM
When a wealthy few control the means of production, so they poorer minority can work hard, get little money, have the fruits of their labor sold to another corrupt wealthy few and sold at a high price to the general public- something is terribly wrong.

Reminds me of the rural workers who get a rudimentary pay by staffing factories in industrial zones of China...and yes, I've spent a fair bit of time over there.  In fact, my ex-gf is a low ranking official of the Chinese government.  I think I met or heard of (directly and indirectly) as many fat cat business owners and the "corrupt wealthy" in China as compared to anywhere else.  Quite frankly, the official communist ideology there is a gradually thinning veneer over the worst kind of capitalism.

Nobody cares about the workers, the miners (the most dangerous mines in the world), polluting the environment and neighbouring communities, etc..  Cash is king, whatever corners can be cut to increase your margin...fine!

Of course, there are exceptions to this generalization but I bear first hand witness to the validity of that generalization.

QuoteIn a socialist economy, the transition from capitalism to communism (or perhaps something better. Communism has it's flaws), workers control the means of production and we produce more of what we need, rather than producing what will make the ruling class the most money.

I can't think of a single nation where this actually works in practice.  There are always those that feel they are "more equal than others" (apologies to Orwell).  Note that I'm not defending capitalism, I'm simply saying that socialism doesn't really work any better either - we plebians don't all end up equally rich, we just end up equally poor.

All these ideologies are flawed unless and until parochial self-interest is stamped out of the human psyche. Don't hold your breath for that one

Quote from: Mazarine_Sky on July 06, 2009, 02:25:20 PM
Simple enough.

It's simple, but profound.

Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 08, 2009, 01:07:54 PM
A high-tech economy beats socialism any day of the week.

Are you saying that you can't have a high-tech socialist economy?  Different people have different ideas of what socialism is - even us socialists.

Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 08, 2009, 01:07:54 PM
It is a lot more satisfying, in the long-term, than undereducated fools who all complain that they are paid "chump change" in spite of the fact that their work could be performed better by well-trained chimps.

That sounds an awful lot like what we have in the USA right now.  I thought our system was called capitalism 

Since people have different ambition, different levels of intelligence, different emotional needs, different ideals, different needs; there will never be a 'fair' political system. Corruption seems to be the normality in any political system, some systems are just better at hiding it. To give GO another quote "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" That's from memory so sorry if it's wrong

Really though, what do people want out of political systems? We see what we and they get. But what do we want? Most of the time it seems we want apathy. How many people voted in the USA? Probably 99.9% voted in China, might not mean much but which one can claim to be democratic?

Oh well hijack another thread 

Cindy

Quote from: CindyJames on September 28, 2009, 04:20:30 AM
Since people have different ambition, different levels of intelligence, different emotional needs, different ideals, different needs; there will never be a 'fair' political system.

True, there's no political system that's perfectly fair - but some, like democracy, are fair enough for human purposes. 

I'm only a democratic socialist because I sincerely believe that a truly communist society is impossible. (Ideally, I'd love an anarchistic communism, but... like I said... ppl "can't" do that.)

Democracy is the underlying principle of socialism, and as Karl Marx put it, socialism is the necessary transition between capitalism and communism, because like you said, we really aren't ready for that and won't be for a long time.
Also China is a horrible example. The government rules the people of China, not the people. Otherwise it wouldn't be the way it is.
Communism is a philosophy against "classes" and oppresive government. Sort of the same thing happened with the Soviet Union.
But really, look to Europe. Most countries in western Europe are on the verge of socialism, with only a few things in the way. This is simply part of the transitional phase. And well... Those countries aren't exactly failures.
Japaan and Canada are good examples as well. They are doing rather well when compared to us.

The U.S. cycles from left to right. Too far in any direction causes general hardships. Now our leader is moving left but has lost site of the main problem "big Business" since his election and those of congress depend on that money. It is only a large change in giving the vote back to the citizens as it is taking the vote power away from corporate marketing that will heal the inequities.

Quote from: Miniar on September 28, 2009, 10:42:45 AM
I'm only a democratic socialist because I sincerely believe that a truly communist society is impossible.

What he said.  Not all of us are Marxists.