From now on, if you call another person racist, you lose the debate. Seriously, it is the ultimate fail. It is the low road. It is slander. It is libel. Don't do it. Only the most absolutely complete and total lowlifes make a habit of using this kind of tactic to get ahead. If you call a person a racist without having a really good, damned reason to do so, then you are wrong. Every point that you are trying to make in the discussion just got totally knocked down. Nobody should ever believe anything you say anymore. No matter what you say, it should be assumed that you are not telling the whole truth. From now on, that's just how it is.

I am getting a little bit tired of being called a "racist" everytime somebody disagrees with me on something. People from the religious right call me a Nazi racist when I try to discuss genetics. People from the left accuse me of being racist when I say something that is the least bit politically incorrect, even if it isn't the least bit "racist." In my personal experience, the kinds of people who resort to this slur have really shallow, poorly examined views, and they are knowingly using this as an ad hominem attack against another person's ideas. Terms like "racist" or "ethnocentric" USUALLY appears when I actually DO have a strong point, and the person making this accusation lacks any other premise to attack MY ideas other than to attack and degrade my character.

Well, from now on, if you call me a racist, that tells me that I am right, and you are wrong. It verifies that you can't find a single legitimate fault in my views. It shows that my arguments are absolutely air-tight. It also shows that you are 1) shallow, and 2) a complete phony who shouldn't be believed under any circumstances whatsoever.

That is final.

I'm pretty sure it's just Godwin's Law(mentioning Hitler or Nazism) that would be in bad taste or make you look ridiculous.

Most times I've seen someone being called racist in a debate, it was pretty much true.

Wow, who died and made you god?  I missed that memo.

And if you don't want to be called a racist, then don't talk like one.  That's pretty simple I would think.

Quote from: tekla on July 11, 2009, 03:05:46 PM
Wow, who died and made you god?  I missed that memo.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Sigma, not to make this into another debate, but just to clarify:

Quote from: Dictionary.comRacist.  noun.

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

By the first definition, in regards to your last post about telling Pakistan how to rule their tribal regions, that's racism

Quote from: Dictionary.comEthnocentrism.  noun.

1.    Sociology. the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.

2.    a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.

In the same discussion of Central Asia and the Taliban/Pakistan, you basically took the viewpoint that people in the U.S. are the same as Pashtun tribes.  While we are all humans, there are some distinct differences.  And again, telling other countries/people's/governments how to run things in their country, is ethnocentric.

Sweet. I assume that losing the debate* means the debate* is over, and the racist who said the racist things that elicitted the charge of racism will quit spewing racist drivel and be quiet. That sounds like a good deal.

* I wasn't aware, until now, that this was a high school forensics club. My mistake. Many apologies. But, since it is, you might want to bone up on your argumantation skills, Σ'   -- your post isn't going to win you many points from the judges.

Oh please, I've been in so many debates where racism didn't come up...

If so many people think you are racist in debates, then maybe they are noticing something about you that may lead them to think that you may be racist.

Wow, racism did come up. Well look at that.

Quote from: Monty on July 11, 2009, 03:04:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just Godwin's Law(mentioning Hitler or Nazism) that would be in bad taste or make you look ridiculous.

Most times I've seen someone being called racist in a debate, it was pretty much true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

Quote from: Fae on July 11, 2009, 03:39:27 PMnot to make this into another debate

You just did. Fae, I was expressing an opinion on the best way to handle the problems in Pakistan, and that's neither ethnocentric nor racist. It's no more ethnocentric nor racist than you having an opinion regarding the same subject.

Ethnocentric was the American intervention in Afghanistan, which has resulted in a WORSE government coming to take the Taliban's place. Even a major women's rights organization there has been saying they MISS the Taliban. Wait, no, I don't think they miss it, but they seem to think the Northern Alliance is WORSE.

I stated clearly, in that thread, "the best entity for handling the problems in Pakistan is the Pakistani government." Now, what part of that phrase leaves the least bit of room for the idea that I think the American government has the right to go in bossing the Pakistanis around, shoving our culture in their faces, and dropping democracy on them in the forms of bombs and artillary fire?

No, you were looking for an excuse to slander and defame me, and that was low. It was the most slimeball, disgusting thing that you could do. Epic, epic fail.

NEGAR is hardly a major woman's rights group.

Quote from: Heartwood on July 11, 2009, 03:59:00 PMIf so many people think you are racist in debates...

Tekla, who thinks she is an expert on molecular biochemistry because she studied the history of science.

Lisagirl, a queen of distortion who thinks that working for the electric company makes her the DIVINE authority on neuroscience, even though she has not shown herself to have even the most basic knowledge on this subject.

And Fae, who originally just misunderstood me, and now she has become very annoying.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 04:21:44 PM

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Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 11, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
Sweet.

Yes, Alyssa. I am accustomed to you being very sarcastic and rude. You don't have to go any further to prove that you lack the manners belonging to a cockroach.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 05:25:58 PM

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Lisa! Tekla! I am still waaaiting for you to share with me your WONDERFUL knowledge regarding molecular biochemistry. What, did I scare you away by using too many big, scary words? Come on, put your money where your mouth is! Let's see what you've got!

Well that's a bit much.

I don't always agree with Lisa, different social/cultural backgrounds and all.  But I do trust her when it comes to science and technology because her experience is based in practice and not just theory, which, in the end, makes a difference.

And I hardly think I'm an expert, but I did go to a school were that was a major field of study, and income - so it was not just a class, but a revenue stream.

And Fae and I share many values.

Alyssa, well anyone who climbs and skis can't be all bad in my experience - and, at the least, she does have experience.

Oh yeah, I'll extend to you (and you alone) the privileged of calling me Dr. Tekla K. West, (Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi) in the future.  I let other people slide on that, but since your so into being right and all, be really right.

Wait, I thought ad hominem attacks mean you automatically lose.

Oh silly girl, that only extends to you and me, not the writer.  I'm sure they don't fall off the mountain either, the mountain just ascends from them.

Oh, and both Tekla AND Lisa have been exercising an extremely ethnocentric attitude toward Islamic regimes. They have been behaving as if an Islamic "theocracy" will inevitably be a basket case. They seem to have skimmed OVER the fact that the UK is technically a theocracy. Sweden and every country that has the same flag design technically includes the Lutheran church as part of the government, and you automatically pay a tax to the Lutheran church if you are living in most of these countries unless you opt out. And yet, in spite of the fact that these countries are technically theocratic states, they are among the most successful secular democracies in the entire world.

Yeah, I'm really ethnocentric for believing that an Islamic regime is just as capable of becoming a flourishing, industrialized country as any Western country that also mixes religion and government. Yeah, I'm this racist bigot who thinks that people from other parts of the world who practice foreign religions are just as capable of being successful as people from Japan. That's right, I use JAPAN, which is a FOREIGN COUNTRY that has a culture ABSOLUTELY ALIEN to my own as a STANDARD that should be emulated. Yeah, how racist and ethnocentric of me. I'm such a horrible person.

You're all full of crap.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 04:48:59 PM

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Quote from: Monty on July 11, 2009, 03:04:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just Godwin's Law(mentioning Hitler or Nazism) that would be in bad taste or make you look ridiculous.

Most times I've seen someone being called racist in a debate, it was pretty much true.

Well, I've noticed that the only group of ethnicities that haven't produced any flourishing, industrialized nations are the BLACK PEOPLE! Now, I COULD point to various extenuating circumstances to explain this, but I want YOU in particular to think that I am some throwback redneck and to say so as often as you can. That way, I won't forget that you're a freaking idiot.

Seriously, all of you, take your ignorant accusations of racism and ethnocentrism, and shove them up your butt. You have no basis whatsoever for making these accusations. You just don't like dealing with someone who points out when you're full of crap and isn't impressed with your appeals to authority, so you look for some shallow premise on which to attack my character. How pathetic.

S': Me? Sarcastic? You bet. I'm glad you noticed. I try to make it pretty obvious; it sucks when sarcasm is taken seriously. Speaking of which, I'd be far more impressed by someone with expertise in non-molecular biochemistry. That would be a neat trick! I have no idea how that came, though, up since I (blessedly, it seems) missed the original thread.

But I do try pretty hard to be polite and not attack people personally. I would be interested in finding any post in which I attacked someone. On the handful of occasions that someone has complained, I've apologised and edited the post.


Tekla, I am a pretty lousy technical rock climber, to be honest. HRT doesn't help. But I'm working on it. I'm much more comfortable on snow and ice, whether climbing or skiing. But, "experienced"? I'm going to take that as an off-color remark.

Quote from: Sigma Prime on July 11, 2009, 05:37:55 PM
Oh, and both Tekla AND Lisa have been exercising an extremely ethnocentric attitude toward Islamic regimes. They have been behaving as if an Islamic "theocracy" will inevitably be a basket case. They seem to have skimmed OVER the fact that the UK is technically a theocracy. Sweden and every country that has the same flag design technically includes the Lutheran church as part of the government, and you automatically pay a tax to the Lutheran church if you are living in most of these countries unless you opt out. And yet, in spite of the fact that these countries are technically theocratic states, they are among the most successful secular democracies in the entire world.

Yeah, I'm really ethnocentric for believing that an Islamic regime is just as capable of becoming a flourishing, industrialized country as any Western country that also mixes religion and government. Yeah, I'm this racist bigot who thinks that people from other parts of the world who practice foreign religions are just as capable of being successful as people from Japan. That's right, I use JAPAN, which is a FOREIGN COUNTRY that has a culture ABSOLUTELY ALIEN to my own as a STANDARD that should be emulated. Yeah, how racist and ethnocentric of me. I'm such a horrible person.

You're all full of crap.

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Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 04:48:59 PM

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Well, I've noticed that the only group of ethnicities that haven't produced any flourishing, industrialized nations are the BLACK PEOPLE! Now, I COULD point to various extenuating circumstances to explain this, but I want YOU in particular to think that I am some throwback redneck and to say so as often as you can. That way, I won't forget that you're a freaking idiot.

Islam isn't a race, it's a religion. Therefore it's not racist to be wary of a religion. I'm pretty sure I've seen Tekla talk the same way about sects of Christianity.

I'm well aware that many countries/continent where the indigenous peoples are black(such as African countries) are held back because some of them disparately need an industrial revolution, but I'm not going to point out their race as the cause of it because it isn't relevant. If you're going to point out their race, then make sure you communicate that their race isn't the problem, it just so happens to be that they're black... even so, I'm not sure why that needs to be a point and if you do use it, don't be surprised of someone takes it as racist.

Quote from: Monty on July 11, 2009, 05:57:36 PM
Islam isn't a race, it's a religion.

And a culture, and the term, "ethnocentric," tends, in common usage, to include culturally related people as well as people who presumably have a genetic relationship with each other.

QuoteI'm pretty sure I've seen Tekla talk the same way about sects of Christianity.

Yet they think that Islamic regimes are inherently basket cases in spite of the fact that many Christian regimes have become incredibly successful democracies, and it was never even necessary to overthrow them. The UK is still technically ruled by the Supreme Governor of the Anglican Church, who technically has more power than Iran's Supreme Leader including the ability to call for the dissolution of the Parliament; yet the UK is, in practice, one of the most successful secular democracies in the entire world. There is no reason Iran couldn't acheive a similar feat WITHOUT the US marching in to "overthrow" them. Yet...people like Lisa and Tekla seem to just lump them in with the Taliban. I think they're just really prejudiced against Islamic people in general. Muslims come in all shapes and colors. Some of them are all but indistinguishable, in all respects, from a semi-agnostic Christian born in the US.

QuoteIf you're going to point out their race, then make sure you communicate that their race isn't the problem,

That is exactly what I did on that thread on Barack Obama that got closed. I was trying to point out that one of the problems with the black community in the US was that they had internalized the idea that they are inherently in conflict with white Americans. They have internalized, partially because of the highly misguided actions of some of my own ancestors, that they are a special, separate group of people. A lot of them still have the idea that there is such a thing as a "white neighborhood." I was firmly denying the idea that it has anything to do with anything inherently wrong with black people, and yet I was being called a racist, partially because I hold the belief that men like Al Sharpton are NOT helping the black community. That's not racism, dude. I originally GOT a lot of these ideas from, as I was saying there, BLACK PEOPLE! And the thing is, it was a perfectly appropriate and pertinent subject for that thread!

And yet, just because my views weren't mainstream, I was being treated like dirt. I happened to use the term "Asiatic" to denote people who are what MOST people think of when they hear the word "Asian," in recognition of the fact that an enlightend understanding of Asia reveals that they are really the most ethnically diverse continent in the entire world and NOT all like what most people assume, and Lisa plagiarized the American Heritage Dictionary to try to accuse me of INTENTIONALLY using the term as a racial slur. And she was being SO patronizing about it, I felt like chewing nails and spitting bullets. She triggered in me an eruption of anger and loathing. She has presented a pattern of mendacity and outright lies on this forum.

And culture also, as you've pointed out, doesn't necessarily mean they need a genetic relationship via race. Not all of the middle east is Islam for example.

As for the UK, it's currently being run by racist white men who don't want any outsiders, only white people. I'm pretty sure that's a case where it goes too far, so it's really not a good example. Can it work and has it worked? Yes, it has but please, don't use the UK as an example.

I think the issue that people would have taken to your statements is the same way people get upset when talking about the LGBT community as a whole. It's not that you're wrong and it's not that you're right, it's just that you're trying to tackle a really broad subject and no matter what someone will probably get offended. There is no one view to that community.

The easiest way to avoid being called a racist is to stop making racist statements.