"In contrast to this divinely ordered vision for human gender and sexual expression, today we in the West are confronted by a spirit of "transgender" activism – flowing out of the gay rights movement – that says gender no longer matters, that the distinctives of male and female are merely social constructs and that the sexes are interchangeable. Ironically, while these activists argue that a homosexual orientation is fixed and immutable, they incoherently claim that gender is "fluid" and changeable."

Focus on the Family - ->-bleeped-<-

This is the kind of crap these people are spewing out that help make our lives miserable. If you don't understand it, condemn it, just like God and Jesus would have wanted. 

I don't know about them, but my gender has always been female.

Julie

A friend of mine and I may be sending letters and other materials in response to some of the rhetoric being spewed by such organizations and individuals. One of things I have done is to relate my life journey to the way God has moved in my life. Being transgender has made me study scripture with  thoroughness and clarity.

It the attitude of some of these people that is appalling. I could write a whole essay about this but that's another story for another post.

Gennee

Near as I can figure when you claim to be a preacher and don't have a clue as what to preach the easiest thing to do is keep coming up with a new line of garbage every now and then for gullible people to buy.

I don't mind so much that the oppose it...people can and do over-apply what they think they get from the Bible.

What bugs me - and it bugs me most because contrary to the prevailing wisdom in our community I DO have a lot of respect for FotF in general terms - is that they have it wrong in terms of what they THINK they are opposing.

While there is an (I think valid) argument that a lot of gender expression is cultural, and thus somewhat fluid (i.e. the length and style of hair, or who gets to wear pants, for a couple of obvious examples) that is not the same as gender identity and I would suggest that the vast majority of the TG/TS community doesn't argue anything even similar to the idea that gender is fluid.

When you base your position on a totally flawed understanding of what it is you are opposing you can't help but surrender a massive amount of credibility and that hurts everything you do, even in places where you are doing some good.

The older I get the more I get disappointed in everything and everybody *sigh* - I'm way more a cynic than I used to be.

Gender identity is immutable. And it is enitrely possible to change body anatomically correspond the identity that is based on neurological backround.

You know what FoF really prays for - more tax free money.

They are all butthurt because they are slipping more and more into irrelevance - if not outright absurdity.  (Witness the mental gymnastics last week as what's left of the Religious Right - and FoF are huge standard bearers for the movement - tried really, really hard to redefine the word 'quit' which, up until last week, was defined as walking away before you finished a job you said you would do.)

I really don't think they matter much anymore, and with luck they are going to destroy the Republican Party before they are done.  Perhaps there is a god after all.

Quote from: gennee on July 14, 2009, 10:52:51 AM
I could write a whole essay about this but that's another story for another post.

Gennee

DO it.......

Quote from: daisybelle on July 14, 2009, 01:41:00 PM
DO it.......

I already have. The Natural Order of Creation

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 14, 2009, 10:41:48 AM
"In contrast to this divinely ordered vision for human gender and sexual expression,

Do they mean this divinely ordered vision? "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

It is articles like this that generates bigotry and hatred.

Quote from: focus on the Family: Our Position (->-bleeped-<-)While God's intent for sexuality and gender is being turned upside down, we must remember that those who struggle with their gender identity have lived lives of great pain, confusion and rejection. And, just as Jesus went out of his way to reach the outcasts of society, we're called to humbly share His love embodied in the Gospel, to lift them up in prayer and to allow the Holy Spirit to bring about conviction, healing and transformation.

As long as we do it they way.  What happened to the teachings of Christ: To love thy neighbor as you love yourselves (TLB, Luke 10:25-37).  And they wonder why some Muslims think that Christians, and their great Devil, The United States, is out to crush their beliefs.   

Quote from: focus on the Family: Our Position (->-bleeped-<-)We call upon all parents to take a proactive role in their children's development by providing them with a strong, Christian example of what it means to be male and female. Many of the problems associated with ->-bleeped-<-, like confusion and pain, stem from a lack of parental involvement and guidance. Children must be taught that, just as each individual life has inestimable worth, so too each gender brings its own unique characteristics of inestimable worth to relationships, family and society.

Such as "beating the girl out of the boy".  Violence breeds violence.  Just what we need more hatred and violence.

Did they forget this?

Quote from: (NIV, John 13:34-35)"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

How dare they call themselves Christians.  They don't even follow a commandment from Christ himself.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate all Christians.  Just those, like this article, that preaches hatred, bigot and violence.

Janet

Janet hun, I love you but I have to quibble...

Quote
And they wonder why some Muslims think that Christians, and their great Devil, The United States, is out to crush their beliefs.

I sure hope you are aware that orthodox Muslims hold in the highest regard the theology that says that all other faiths should be eliminated and all converted to Islam.

whatever Muslims think about Christianity, it is the Muslim faith around the world that is converting Christians and others to Islam at the point of a sword or a torch...not the other way round.

Quote
Such as "beating the girl out of the boy".  Violence breeds violence.  Just what we need more hatred and violence.

It's comments like this that draw me into these unwinnable religious debates.

YEs there are misguided and frankly I think twisted people who do that...and some (definitely not ALL) of them do so (falsely) under the banner of religion

BUT

There is no way in HELL the FoF or any other Evangelical Christian organization advocates "beatings" of ANY sort as a remedy for psychological conditions (which is what they would say we have)

I challange you or anyone to find me one quote anywhere from James Dobson or any other recognized evangelical leader who says ANYTHING that can REMOTELY be construed as advocating violence against trans people, or gays for that matter, and most especially as it pertains to children.

Again, YES some twisted people will say "Dobson said it was sin so I'm gonna beat the sin out of this boy" but that is NOT what Dobson and his people would want to happen and NOT what any of their material says.

In fact, they specifically say at every turn that people like us (that they DO disapprove of admittedly) should be dealt with in compassion and love, not hatred and violence.

I'm sorry to be so confrontational about this but I believe if you are going to oppose someone, oppose them for what they really are, not for the positions you falsely attribute to them.

what you did here, with all due respect, is EXACTLY the sort of thing some foolish religious folks do when they claim we "chose" to be trans or that we are all sexual perverts.

We can disagree without making villains of each other.

Quote
Just those, like this article, that preaches hatred, bigot and violence.

there is not one word in that article that supports hatred or violence.

Bigotry I'd give you - though I'd call it bad theology and ignorance - but nothing - NOTHING - in that quote suggested we should be hated or the victims of violence.

   Dr. James Dobson, is a child psychologist and founder of the fundamentalist Christian agency, Focus on the Family. In his Reference Guide, he recommended that babies younger than 15 months should not be spanked. He wrote:
   "There is no excuse for spanking babies or children younger than 15 to 18 months of age. But midway through the second year (18 months) boys and girls become capable of knowing what your telling them to do or not do."
   "If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."

That was the first hit when I googled "Dobson James corporal punishment" - there were over 6000 hits, read them at your leisure.

Oh goodie!  Another Let's Hate The Christians thread.  We sure need some more of those.

Just to be clear about one thing here:  James Dobson is not, and never has claimed to be, an ordained minister.  As Tekla pointed out, he is a psychologist.

I do disagree with him on a number of things.  What is worse, though, is those who take what he says to its extreme.  Yes, he certainly advocates corporal punishment.  And yes, he certainly believes that we, the TG crowd, are wrong.    I think he truly does not understand the issues here. 

No, I do not give money to his organization or support him in any way.  But I find it interesting that this whole issue is a minuscule part of what he is saying and doing.  There is a lot more that FoF does.  I have met Dobson twice and interviewed him once.  Whatever else you say about him, I have to give him credit where it is due.  I personally found him to be a very kind and caring individual.   Of course it is much easier and more fun to just demonize someone, so I have no delusions that anyone is interested in getting the whole story.

Now I know what is coming.  I am wearing my asbestos bra. 

Kristi

As one of the major players in what has now become known as 'the culture war' he may well be free to preach what he chooses, but he did America no favors and like others in that band, I think when all is said and done, he did great harm to this nation.

Read this, very interesting. 

http://www.alternet.org/politics/141248/provocative_new_book_challenges_us_to_really_ask_%22why%22/

Bishop argues that our country has become increasingly segregated by ideology. Americans are moving to towns and cities to live with people like themselves, who believe similar things. We are clustering "in communities of sameness, among people with similar ways of life, beliefs, and, in the end, politics." One way to see this trend in action is to look at our elections.

The increasing incidence of "landslide counties" (counties in which a candidate wins by 20 percentage points or more) exemplifies how Americans are becoming more homogeneous on a community level. Between 1976 and 2004, the number of counties in which the presidential election was a landslide doubled, from a quarter of the population to half. It is conventional wisdom, for example, that the 2004 presidential election was one of the closest presidential campaigns in history. Yet, as Bishop points out, nearly half of American voters lived in places where a single candidate won definitively. On a macro level, America is closely divided. But these elections aren't close calls in our communities, because we've moved to places with neighbors who believe what we believe and vote the same way.

Our changing demography isn't the result of mass migratory patterns such as those we have seen in our nation's history, but of people who are sorting themselves one by one. We are concentrating ourselves by belief, and the result is localities that are becoming "politically monogamous." Bishop calls this phenomenon the Big Sort.

Quote from: tekla on July 15, 2009, 09:28:44 PM
   Dr. James Dobson, is a child psychologist and founder of the fundamentalist Christian agency, Focus on the Family. In his Reference Guide, he recommended that babies younger than 15 months should not be spanked. He wrote:
   "There is no excuse for spanking babies or children younger than 15 to 18 months of age. But midway through the second year (18 months) boys and girls become capable of knowing what your telling them to do or not do."
   "If children cry for longer than five minutes, "the child is merely complaining...I would require him to stop the protest crying, usually by offering him a little more of whatever caused the original tears."

That was the first hit when I googled "Dobson James corporal punishment" - there were over 6000 hits, read them at your leisure.

of course he advocates corporal punishment.

so do I for that matter.

But being for corporal punishment is NOT being for corporal punishment for EVERYTHING.

Spanking a kid for gender issues is akin to spanking a kid for being depressed or shy.

It's not the same as spanking them for throwing a football in the house or whatever.

If I may Laura and respond to your post....

That is the estimation that I get from what I have read or heard from the radical factions of the faith.  I don't think that most of our Muslim brothers and sisters think that.  I think many have a deep respect for the United States.  As I have for their beliefs.

I so agree, but I have read that from somewhere, I don't remember.  If fact I do believe that it was said on a radio station, not long ago.  Or at least words similar.


Exactly my point.  There are nuts out there that would use their words to justify their actions of violence.
BUT

They also don't preach violence against Abortion doctors or clinics ether, but some of their followers will take it as a call to arms like some have done against law abiding doctors.

I base my opinions on some personal facts.  If I may, let me tell you all a story.  I was a Christian at one time.  When I asked my pastor for some guidance regarding my GID.  He began screaming at me, quoting scripture and he physically stuck me with his Bible. several times, calling the demon out of me. After I was attacked by this respect member of the clergy, I asked God 'Why'.  And I received no answer.  That was when I realized that this person of God was so filled with hate for me that he would have killed me if I let him.  So when I say the things I have said it is just because these are similar words this pastor preach at church on Sunday.  It scares the h**I out of me to hear it all again.  If they believe in love why don't they preach that acceptance is love.  It may be hate the sin, but love the sinner.  But I have not sinned.  I am just a woman who was cursed at birth.
Many of our brothers and sisters here are of many faiths.  I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but after being violently attacked by a man of God, maybe you can understand why I don't trust people who preach these kinds of things. And yes not all pastors are like that person, but I fear for our safety from the extremist factions that will use it for violence and hatred.

Kristi,
No, I don't think it is a "Let's hate the Christians" thread as why do they wish for everyone to believe as they do.

Sorry to offend.

Janet

Quote from: Kristi on July 15, 2009, 09:49:49 PM
Of course it is much easier and more fun to just demonize someone, so I have no delusions that anyone is interested in getting the whole story.

Isn't the irony fascinating? That is very true AND it is EXACTLY the mentality that the mean ol' christians are supposed to be guilty of which makes them so hateful.

---

Post Merge: July 15, 2009, 10:30:57 PM

---

QuoteI don't think that most of our Muslim brothers and sisters think that.  I think many have a deep respect for the United States.  As I have for their beliefs.

Indeed.

but which are we talking about her - the doctrines of the faith, or the views of the faithful?

In BOTH religion MOST of the faithful have a "live and let live" attitude towards the other faith.

In BOTH religions, the doctrines of the faith suggest that only their religion is right and everyone should belong to it BUT in Islam, the doctrines of the faith not only permit but encourage forced conversions - In Christian doctrine there is NO place for forced conversions (even though history has examples)

Quote
I have read that from somewhere, I don't remember.  If fact I do believe that it was said on a radio station, not long ago.  Or at least words similar.

And we just assume the remark was derivitive of Christian teaching? the last place I heard it was from those radio hosts in Sacramento who never invoke christian morality to support the position and, when confronted, listened and learned and changed thier views.

Quote
There are nuts out there that would use their words to justify their actions of violence.
...
They also don't preach violence against Abortion doctors or clinics ether, but some of their followers will take it as a call to arms like some have done against law abiding doctors.

But that is faulty reasoning my dear. If I say to you that the taking of innocent life is wrong and you go out and take a life because of it, how is it my fault? If a policeman tells you smoking pot is wrong do you go out and kill a drug dealer? And if you do is it the policeman's fault?

Just because a violent nutter twists something as an excuse to be violent doesn't make the original speaker a villain.

That's the same logic that suggests that if a kid hears about sex in rock music it makes it the music's fault if he has sex. don't we laugh at fundies for that kind of logic?

Quote
If I may, let me tell you all a story.

I dispiar that there are so-called Christians like that as much as you do. There is NO Biblical excuse for that stupidity.

And I make no excuse for that behavior. In a just world you could have called him out before the church and he would have lost his job.

Nevertheless, you CANNOT logically suggest that when a person says "LOVE" a nutter hears that word and hates anyway and it's still the fault of the person who said love.

A thousand things are believed by all of us to be wrong and none of us go out and attack the person doing it (dealing drugs, cheating on taxes, whatever)

just because you say "X is wrong" (even though you are wrong to say it) is NEVER a reason to blame you if a nutter gets violent in response.

Quote
I am sorry if I have offended anyone[.quote]
i can't speak for others but I'm not offended - certainly not as a matter of faith issues in conflict.

my argument here is not in defense of Christianity or any Christian, it's in defense of actual facts and sound reasoning as opposed to emotional straw men and red herrings and other assorted illlogic.

I totally understand WHY you feel these emotions and I feel them for you, what happened to you is indefensible.

but that doesn't make your claims more sound logically.

Do you think if Dobson had caught his 14 year old son in full drag that he wouldn't spank them?  I kinda doubt it.

And I raised two kids, nether of which were ever given corporal punishment of any sort what so ever by either their mom or me (unless you count shoveling snow or cutting the grass, which they would have done at any rate) and both graduated from good universities on the honor roll, and have done well for themselves, so violence is not the only way to go.  Damn liberal parents setting their kids up for failure and all.

And I have no problem with Christianity, there are part of it I like even like the way that Catholic Gothic architecture seems to mirror the areas of light and darkness within all of us.  I can see where people find great comfort in it, and all other religions.  I don't believe in any of them, but that's beside the point.  However, when religion separates from the private lives of the believers and congregations and attempts to enter the public sphere, and promote its beliefs as law, then there are problems, not the least of which is that once you choose, as FotF did, as Pat Robertson did, as the Liberty Road Baptist Church did - then any, and all criticism is fair game, as that criticism is at the root of the democratic experience in America.  To say that you have the right to enter the public debate, but in doing so you are exempt from critique, is not just wrong, its un-American.

Quote from: Laura Hope on July 15, 2009, 10:11:43 PM
In BOTH religions, the doctrines of the faith suggest that only their religion is right and everyone should belong to it BUT in Islam, the doctrines of the faith not only permit but encourage forced conversions

That is simply false. The Qur'an says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" and that principle has always been the norm. Christian lands in the Middle East like Egypt remained majority Christian for centuries after being conquered and continuously ruled by Muslims. Is that what you call forced conversion at the point of a sword? The Coptic Christians of Egypt preferred Muslim rule to Byzantine, because the Byzantine church oppressed the Coptic faithful--by the sword. While the Muslim rulers allowed the different Christian sects including the Copts to practice their religion in peace.

The practices of the first four caliphs are considered normative, and all these conquests took place during that early caliphal period. They not only did not force conversion, for a while in the conquered lands they actually tried to suppress conversion, because it was happening at an accelerated rate, because conversion to Islam was financially advantageous. It's really a mercantile civilization above all. You don't make good business relationships by brandishing swords at people. You negotiate deals to both parties' mutual economic satisfaction.

Having just made a protest concerning stereotyping of Christians--you don't want Christians to be defined by their most extreme adherents, right?--it would be intellectually inconsistent to turn around and stereotype Islam by its most extreme adherents. You don't know enough about Islam to be making wildly inaccurate claims about it like that.

QuoteDo you think if Dobson had caught his 14 year old son in full drag that he wouldn't spank them?

I'm 98% sure he wouldn't.

At the VERY outside, if he had repeatedly forbid it and the son had repeatedly did so....MAYBE there would be a spanking for disobediance...MAYBE...but even then I doubt it because what he WOULS have done, assuming the son copped to feeling TS, would be to have gotten him into some nice "Christian counseling" that would have tried to brainwash him out of it.

and chances are that would have led to the son repressing it until sometime in adulthood.

and NO, I do NOT agree with that "solution"...but the fact remains I do NOT believe Dobson would employ CP in this circumstance.


He's not a monster, despite the demonetization.

Quote
However, when religion separates from the private lives of the believers and congregations and attempts to enter the public sphere, and promote its beliefs as law, then there are problems

On this we do not disagree but...

Quote
then any, and all criticism is fair game

Full stop.

THAT is total BS, excuse me for being frank.

HONEST criticism is fair game. Making stuff up is not.

If it is fair game for you to say Dobson believe in violence to suppress ->-bleeped-<-, then it is also fair game for Dobson to say that you are a sex addicted whore spreading AIDS all over your city.

Or, ya know, you can both be honest and THAT will be fair.

Quote
That is simply false. The Qur'an says "Let there be no compulsion in religion" and that principle has always been the norm.

The prophet himself conquered in the name of Allah.

I have seen other quotes from that holy book which says things like the trees should cry out if a Jew is hiding behind them "come and kill this jew" and so forth.

i concede I don't know that book like I do the Bible but there are a lot of quotes that suggest it and a lot of behavior in this very hour that affirms it. and no, I don't mean isolated incidents I mean people being put to death for conversions and put to death for not converting in numerous places around the world.

BUT

let's say I'm wrong. let's say that it is NOT doctrine to do that and these are isolated cases.

The fact STILL remains that forced conversion is anathema in Christianity and there are virtually NO examples in the last couple of centuries of it happening and yet Janet implied the Muslims had reason to fear "Christian nations"

Quote
While the Muslim rulers allowed the different Christian sects including the Copts to practice their religion in peace.

while paying tribute?

Besides, I'll frankly admit that the official state church right through to the Reformations was a total piece of work and did so many unchristian things that volumes can't contain them.

I'm not defending Christians who let power corrupt and can't get it right, I'm discussing what actual biblical Christian doctrine is and how it is practiced by modern Christians.

Quote

Having just made a protest concerning stereotyping of Christians--you don't want Christians to be defined by their most extreme adherents, right?--it would be intellectually inconsistent to turn around and stereotype Islam by its most extreme adherents. You don't know enough about Islam to be making wildly inaccurate claims about it like that.

conceded for the sake of the larger point. Over the years I've read a lot of what I consider to be quality scholarship which disagrees with your view, but I am past the point of being a student of comparative religions and am not prepared to cite sources to refute you so I yield on the point.

But I think that the original point in regards to the idea that Islam has something to fear from Christians remains very valid.

There's a basic premise that tells me if someone is Christian or not.  Do they follow the teachings of Christ?  I'm not talking the Bible, I'm talking the way Christ lived and what he stood for.

When you say something that hurts one of God's creations, when that creation is doing no harm, you are not Christian and are not following God's will.  That's my belief.  But often I see those who claim to be Christian hurting others by condemning them, speaking poorly of them and encouraging others to ostracize them, and in general making the lives of innocent people miserable.  They are not Christians, they are working for the "other side".

Don't forget, "Beware of false gods".  Many of these fear and hate mongers preach their intolerance under the guise of being good Christians.  But they HURT PEOPLE!  Is that what Christians do?  Is that following what we understand God's will to be?  But if instead we take the will of  into account, isn't that more in accordance of what we'd expect out of that persona?

I'm not at all surprised so many people are down on Christian groups.  Look at what they preach.  Look at the intolerance.  Look at the condemnation that comes from their leaders.  They take their beliefs and present them as if they know God's will.  No one KNOWS God's will.  For those of us who think God represents good, we make assumptions that doing good is following God's will.  But to assume you have all the answers and spew out intolerance without even knowing the facts is irresponsible and certainly not what I think God's will to be. 

We hear that being gay is not natural but there are scientific studies that prove homosexual activities happen all the time in the animal world.  Yet these so called religious experts pound the drum loudly proclaiming homosexuality is unnatural.  The truth is they just can't tolerate it but rather than admit that they lie.

If these people end up on the hot seat because of the words they have spoken publicly, they deserve what they get.  They are nothing more than politicians trying to say whatever they feel they need to say to keep their jobs and force their lifestyle on others.

As far as advocating violence, anyone who incites a person or group into an emotional rage has to accept responsibility for that.  Preaching intolerance, trying to force others to change, comparing innocent acts to violent ones, and all the other falsehoods that result in people hating one another IS WRONG! And from this hatred these fear mongers stir up comes violence.

You don't have to tell someone to carry out acts of violence, all you have to do is play upon his or her fears and let them know if this "agenda" isn't stopped they will lose what they have.  Then watch the mob take to the streets with torches in hand.  It's been done thousands of times.

For those of you who speak so well of the James Dobson's of the world, I challenge you to present in your identified gender and approach him and say, "I am transgender and proud of it."  Then let us know who that goes.

Well I have to go now.  I'm late for my reparative therapy session.

Julie