Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 17, 2009, 10:44:16 AM
Did you read the stuff on the web page?
No, I had an appointment. No time. but I don't have to read it to be confident it features some very unchristian and likely illogical content.
It's not necessary for THAT site to be reasonable for my claim to stand.
(an aside - taking time to read it now, I think the most fun part is the bit about citing the DSM-IV in order to declar it's a "medically recognized disorder" when the same book considers homosexuality normal yet they oppose that as well. When the book is altered to "normalize" ->-bleeped-<- they will have to change that whole line of reasoning.)
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They are referenced by other religious groups as a leader in the fight against us.
Leaders in the fight against the law, I'm sure. Leaders in opinion making regarding the "sinfulness" of ->-bleeped-<- or the theology on the subject...I tend to doubt.
Being a "leader" often just means you have the biggest mouth.
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They have gone national to promote lots more than just opposition to hate crime legislation.
Again, I wasn't defending that group or it's rhetoric...i was speaking to a logical concept. Please don't think I carry any brief for EVERY person who stands against hate crimes bills.
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Honestly, I have been on their side a decade ago and I would have been one of the standard bearers. I understand them. They cannot come out and say what they really think but I have been in their midst and I can tell you that the fear that they have is palpable.
Fear? Yes, I have no doubt of that. People fear change in general terms and usually quite irrationally. Even more so they fear change they can't understand and I have no doubt that very few non-TG people can wrap their brain around what we are feeling.
And yes, there religious indoctrination only heightens that fear.
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As for mainstream religious leaders not inciting hatred against LBGT people, consider their comments that gays are the reason God sent Hurricane Katrina or that 9/11 happened as a punishment for the nation's pro LBGT policies. This is the linkage that God will kill people over LBGT tolerance. Now, how much of a mental leap does it take to the next step and have the saint's do it in his name?
The sad part about those comments was there narrow focus. I understand where Falwell got that idea - albeit he had it wrong because that's the OLD Covenant in which God dealt with nations corporately which is not how he operates under the new covenant (again, within the context of Christian theology) - but even in that misapplication, God's displeasure would apply just as much to dishonesty, fraud, adultery, promiscuity, and all sorts of other sins committed by heterosexuals as well as anything that might have been done by an LGBT person. Even if you believe what Falwell did....to mention specific "sins" without referring broadly to all the rest is error (and he did apologize later and before he died he was having reconciliation meetings with at least one prominent gay activist - not that i would ever defend Falwell on the whole)
Still, I go back to the former point made a few posts ago - VERY LITTLE of the violence perpetrated on transpersons has been linked to religion or perpetrated by an overtly religious person. The VAST majority of it came in the context of sexual and recreational behavior that the people on that site you linked would condemn just as strongly.
And YET the mythology which persists is that if the Christians would just shut up we'd all be safe. That's simply not true.
And, while I'm knee deep I might as well get it out in the open - enhanced punishment under hate crime legislation has almost certainly never prevented a single attack on any protected class person from occurring. The sort of people who commit crimes motivated by hate
are not worried about the provisions in hate crime bills.
And Christians, misguided as those folks who put that site up are, who block hate crimes legislation do not make it more dangerous for us because the bill didn't pass. Because the bill doesn't make you or me any safer.
The bill is, if you believe the logic behind hate crimes laws, a matter of justice. And yes yu can say those who oppose it deny us justice if that's what you want from the bill. but they are not, by killing the bill, denying you safety because that bill won't make us any safer.
All that said, YES the nasty rhetoric used by that group DOES potentially make us less safe. But I don't believe they reflect the views of any significant portion of Christians. As Sandy said, they are essentially the skinheads in the room.
Post Merge: July 17, 2009, 01:02:00 PM
QuoteIn closing, I would say that any church group that wants to wade into the political lobbying business or who refuses to perform all marriages ought to lose their tax exempt status. Give them a choice. Stay in your church with your discriminatory views from the pulpit, and keep your tax exempt status. Or seek to take away my civil rights, and pay Uncle Sam. Let's see what choice they make, then!
Yes and no. In the broader sense, I have NEVER supported tax exempt status because I think it is a bigger burden than it's worth. I do NOT think it's "wrong" - the state makes taxes allowances for all sorts of things that it thinks is good for the society in whole, such as home mortgages or education...or exempting business taxes to get the new factory to come to town. But it's just an idea who's time has passed.
That said, I ABSOLUTELY agree that if a church wants to be politically active they should not be tax exempt - but the flip side of that is once they are paying taxes those of us who disagree with them owe them a full seat at the table like any other political action group, no matter how much we disagree.
On the other hand - I absolutely do NOT think the state should have ANY say on who a church chooses to wed or not. THAT is a state dictating THEOLOGY and is a completely unconstitutional mixture of state and church. there's a wide multitude of ways to get married, and no church should ever be required to violate it's conscious to act as the state requires.
Whether they pay taxes or not.
