I also watched that show last night, and the bee story sure sounded like a cover up. I only know what i've read about the Kleinfelter's syndrome, which is that it doesn't just "come on" as described in the show.

I wonder what kind of bee that was? 

And the wife was unaware of how much Chloe had spent on surgery. Wow.

And Chloe positively glows when she talks about men noticing her.

A lot of deception going on there. I feel sorry for the wife. I suspect that there i going to be a nasty divorce in her future. Obviously Chloe is struggling with trying to balance her new life with her old life. I sure hope that they can work out their new life, but somehow I doubt it.

Quote from: Laura Hope on July 22, 2009, 02:26:55 PM
...
I think Cami made a good but mostly unnoticed point here. And to expand on it, what I see happening is that the Right Wing crowd who opposes expanding protected classes to include TGs are going to do the leg work, and write up an "expose'" debunking the Bee story (assuming it is indeed BS) and then use Chloe as an example of the narcissism that, they will say, is common to EVERY TS person who transitions in spite of the impact on those around them.


When that happens, Chloe's professed urge to help us will in fact have dealt us a blow.

I agree, Laura. And all of that sort of thing adds up and becomes the presented truth as Serano has pointed it out in Whipping Girl and other essays of hers.

I feel for what Chloe has experienced and I can imagine that her fear may have caused her to do and report things that she thought would be more easily "accepted." But, no one but no one ever seems to understand that when they're out to undermine the "idea" of a group of people who they fear and loathe regardless.

Of course in that regard I suppose we could say that these discussions simply point the way for those who'd use that piece to do exactly what we imagine they might.

It's always a difficult line, pursuing what someone may have been thinking, or not. 

Let's see if I can start the right wing spin...

"Ted Prince is a homosexual man who lied to his wife, stole her share of their retirement money and went off half way around the world to have a sex change operation so he can have sex with men. And his wife and sons have to live with the devastation this selfish homosexual man caused his family to suffer. This is why we need to put an end to homosexuality. It's God's will!"

How did I do?

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 22, 2009, 03:03:37 PM
Let's see if I can start the right wing spin...

"Ted Prince is a homosexual man who lied to his wife, stole her share of their retirement money and went off half way around the world to have a sex change operation so he can have sex with men. And his wife and sons have to live with the devastation this selfish homosexual man caused his family to suffer. This is why we need to put an end to homosexuality. It's God's will!"

How did I do?

Julie

Sounds about right. Sigh. 

Again, I concur. Sounds all too right to me and it's frustrating as hell.

I hate that so many of us feel like we can never allow anyone to know, but I am not certain how well we can make a different story without sane and usual TSes becoming more visible. Instead the fearful and those wishing some form of notoriety get the ink.

Is the show you are talking about available for streaming or download? It sounds interesting and id like to see it myself

I may be alone in this, but often I have let my mind wander and have hoped for some type of freak answer to explain my issues. I hoped for a freak accident that would take away my genitals. Or that I end up in the hospital and they do the operation on me by accident...and oh well.

A bee sting? That is pretty original. I wished I would have thought about that. A spider bite maybe...but that is supposed to turn you into a super hero not a woman. I have to give this person an originality ribbon for sure. But I also have to call BS.

I don't want to viewed as TS and I want an excuse for it that would be easier to understand. I want it to not look like its my fault or that I chose to do this. Without physical signs, a real understanding of GID and without really knowing we are right in a self diagnosed mess, it does look like a choice.

But it is what it is. It won't change itself and it won't go away. It has made me suicidal. I can't explain it, it just is. No matter how bad I want a reason, it just has not really been established in medical science. There is no clear cut smoking gun that society, religions and everybody that doubts is going to swallow.

I understand why this person did it. But it was wrong, wrong, wrong. ABC should have never allowed that to air. Bee sting my butt. That beeotch (pun intended) is crazy and spun up some wild tale that will turn into a camp fire story and a fable.

I know I'm in denial and I will admit it.  Chloe needs to do the same.

To me, it sounds like there is an awful lot of deception going on.  Chloe is lying to herself (or trying to), and lying to her family.  ABC is lying to the public by taking the story at face value.  That can lead to more lying, as in Laura's probable scenario.

Moral of the story: Be honest with yourself.  It's hard, but you and everyone else will be better off in the long run.

(I will now return to dusting my own house. )

- Kate

QuoteI hoped for a freak accident that would take away my genitals

have you taken up chainsaw juggling yet?

Quote from: Lori on July 23, 2009, 07:31:15 AM
I may be alone in this, but often I have let my mind wander and have hoped for some type of freak answer to explain my issues. I hoped for a freak accident that would take away my genitals. Or that I end up in the hospital and they do the operation on me by accident...and oh well.

A bee sting? That is pretty original. I wished I would have thought about that. A spider bite maybe...but that is supposed to turn you into a super hero not a woman. I have to give this person an originality ribbon for sure. But I also have to call BS.

I don't want to viewed as TS and I want an excuse for it that would be easier to understand. I want it to not look like its my fault or that I chose to do this. Without physical signs, a real understanding of GID and without really knowing we are right in a self diagnosed mess, it does look like a choice.

But it is what it is. It won't change itself and it won't go away. It has made me suicidal. I can't explain it, it just is. No matter how bad I want a reason, it just has not really been established in medical science. There is no clear cut smoking gun that society, religions and everybody that doubts is going to swallow.

I understand why this person did it. But it was wrong, wrong, wrong. ABC should have never allowed that to air. Bee sting my butt. That beeotch (pun intended) is crazy and spun up some wild tale that will turn into a camp fire story and a fable.

I know I'm in denial and I will admit it.  Chloe needs to do the same.

Well, you are definitely not alone on this. "Oh please God, make something happen to me so I will become a woman!" or something like that. Heard stuff like that dozens of times and even tried to make up a few myself.

What that does is take away the responsibility for making the decision to transition. And it takes away the ability of others to blame you for making that choice which in turn makes it much harder for them to treat you like crap. "Hey, it isn't my fault I turned into a woman! Now I'll have to suffer with this the rest of my life."

While the bee sting may have been somewhat clever I've heard some whoppers that are so complex it would take a geneticist, psychiatrist, endocrinologist and their assistants months to disprove, if it was even possible. The bee sting/Kleinfelter's story could be disproved in about ten minutes.

In all the stories I've heard and made up myself, I've never heard any story that had an air of believability to it.  But that isn't saying there isn't one out there. So we'll keep trying!

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 23, 2009, 09:36:57 AM


While the bee sting may have been somewhat clever I've heard some whoppers that are so complex it would take a geneticist, psychiatrist, endocrinologist and their assistants months to disprove, if it was even possible.
Julie

Oh please do share!!

I remember we've had a few on this site that were mysteriously IS and passed after 1 month of hrt and were forced to go full time at 4 months. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on July 23, 2009, 09:36:57 AM
... The bee sting/Kleinfelter's story could be disproved in about ten minutes.

I took the step yesterday of emailing my biology/science source and got a return this morning. They thought that perhaps the story was true and definitely thought it would take more than 10 minutes to disprove it.

QuoteThere are about a dozen ways (in theory) a change can happen - but most of them have never been observed. 45x/46xy is one, specific damage to the pituitary another. 47xxy plus shutting down of testosterone  was one that was theorized, but not observed before. So it fits.

I've given up on saying "X is impossible". I've seen so many X's - mostly not to do with Intersex conditions - where  "1 in 10 million"  was used as a  synonym for "impossible", yet that would mean 32 cases on average in the US.

So, although the story certainly sounds like it has a certain deception about it, perhaps it does not.

I'd imagine that to do any disproving would require at the least medical records of the visit and the treatments afforded to Chloe at that time. Fat chance of ever getting those records released to prove or disprove much of anything.

Seems that lots of stuff, sometimes medical treatment, can indeed, "set-off" cascades.

Kleinfelter's (XXY) is not a dormant type condition any more than XX or XY is.  So the story about a bee sting "kicking in" the Kleinfelter's discredits the story teller. Add to that the deception regarding taking out $70K from their retirement money, the statement about how she may not have transitioned if she married an old flame and the heightened interest in men (from the pictures it looked like she was already dating them) and you have the makings of someone spinning a very tall tale. 

If it walks like a duck...

Julie

Perhaps not everyone want to be on TV.  But the people who do will do ANYTHING to get there.  That's my experience at least, but watch American Idol or America's Got Talent if you don't believe me.

I haven't seen the episode yet, so I can't comment on the other issues. Except the money which has been pretty well covered, and if indeed it is as discussed that's unethical no matter what the bee did.

As for the medical part, I'm not going to assume she's lying about that - I'm simply out of my depth to guess. But IF she's lying then she's set up a perfect pitch down the middle for our opponents to knock out of the park.

If I ever find an online version to watch I'll maybe comment on the other stuff then.

Quote from: Laura Hope on July 23, 2009, 01:26:54 PM

If I ever find an online version to watch I'll maybe comment on the other stuff then.

Try here and click through the segments on the upper-right to get each part.

Thanks. the ABC window never wanted to get past the loading stage even after I installed their player.

Just in case anybody is doubting anything that Julie is saying here I dug out one of my old genetics manuals and here is a blurb:

XXY - This condition is called Klinefelter syndrom. Affected persons are male. They tend to be tall, do NOT undergo normal sexual maturation, are STERILE, and in some cases have enlargement of the breasts. Mild mental impairment is common.

See, this is a genetic thing because the affected person has an extra chromosome, the result of a non-disjunction failure during meiosis and have it their whole lives. It can't be turned on at any time. My reproductive physiology book says that "individuals have small external genitalia, crptorchid testes, and are mentally retarded."

As I see it Chloe doesn't exhibit any of these symptoms and it can be easily proven because Chloe obviously wasn't sterile and fathered 2 beautiful children who are both obviously normal.

Now, upon further research I find that it not only is theoretically possible for XXY males to father children, obviously they would only be able to father boys, but that the major impediment is low sperm counts which can be treated to some extent. Also, the vast majority of XXY males never develop the syndrome. They are normal except for being slightly behind in language areas. So now I am changing my mind a bit. It is not likely but may be possible as both kids are boys. If one would have been a girl then it would have been 100% impossible. 

Quote
As I see it Chloe doesn't exhibit any of these symptoms and it can be easily proven because Chloe obviously wasn't sterile and fathered 2 beautiful children who are both obviously normal. I just don't see how he could ever father any children if her story was true.

Oh no? I think you're missing a couple.

Quote from: ginger39 on July 23, 2009, 09:46:46 PM
Just in case anybody is doubting anything that Julie is saying here I dug out one of my old genetics manuals and here is a blurb:

XXY - This condition is called Klinefelter syndrom. Affected persons are male. They tend to be tall, do NOT undergo normal sexual maturation, are STERILE, and in some cases have enlargement of the breasts. Mild mental impairment is common.

See, this is a genetic thing because the affected person has an extra chromosome, the result of a non-disjunction failure during meiosis and have it their whole lives. It can't be turned on at any time. My reproductive physiology book says that "individuals have small external genitalia, crptorchid testes, and are mentally retarded."

Quote from: Mister on July 23, 2009, 09:49:40 PM
Oh no? I think you're missing a couple.

Not sure what you are driving at but I changed my post a little before seeing this. I still don't think that Chloe has Klinefelters but it is possible. And people with XXY do not necessarily have Klinefelters anyway. Most are just regular people with no symptoms. If Chloe is XXY then she falls into that category and not the category with the syndrome. Just my opinion. But it is possible to be XXY and have kids. Not really possible to have Klinefelters and have kids though. The doctor may have just given Chloe bad information. As I said earlier though, I am highly sympathetic to Chloe and the position she is in. It really is an impossible situation.