On Respect, Or, How To Avoid Mispronounciation

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/7/25/757610/-On-Respect,-Or,-How-To-Avoid-Mispronounciation
7/24/09

The first thing you should know is that biological sex, gender, and sexuality are three completely different things, neither associated with the other. What I mean by that is that an individual might be male, or female, some combination of the two (intersex persons)...or none of the above—but that has no bearing on whether that same person might find themselves sexually attracted to males, or females, or intersex persons...or no one at all.

just a quick note to express my hope that you found this to be kind, respectful...and fairly accurate.

i'm quick to acknowledge my own ignorance here--which was the reason for the story in the first place--and i hope you'll feel more than free to let me know what could have been made better.

for those just coming to this story, you should know that all of this came from a story i had written previously about gladys bentley. when i posted it to the bilerico project it was pointed out to me that i had confused gender and sexuality in the piece, which suggested to me that a bit of education might be a smart idea.

and for those of you who don't know gladys bentley: you should. bentley was at the center of several fascinating connections in american cultural history, including the harlem renaissance and an ongoing connecton with louis armstrong and the "hot jazz" movement of the 1920s and 1930s.

you can see that story by clicking here: http://fakeconsultant.blogspot.com/2009/07/on-gay-history-or-this-is-not-stonewall.html

The article repeatedly states that gender identity is a choice. It wasn't for me.

i apologize for that...but what i was trying to say is that, for many, gender is imposed upon them by others, when the person who is in the the best position to determine your gender...is you.

beyond that, i'm of the impression that there are those who choose to vary their gender roles over time, and that, just as people are free to make their own decisions about sexuality, they should be equally free to make the same decisions about gender.

Transitioning is a choice but often a limited one as many feel "transition or die" is the only choice. Gender itself is not a choice.

i think we're both saying something very similar, but with different terminology.

let me try this, based on the "lifelines" terminology:

"sex" is biologically determined, but "gender" and "gender identity" are self-determined.

the folks at lifelines describe "gender" as the person's own perception of their gender, and "gender identity" as the way in which a person displays gender to others.

in this construction, sex is not a conscious choice, but a person could choose to change either their gender or gender identity. the imperitive to transition would result from a desire to change the gender identity imposed on someone at birth to one that more closely aligns with sex and gender.

there are those who reject gender and gender identity, and those who percieve multiple genders and express multiple gender identities; i presume (perhaps inaccurately) that for this community of people, gender is a choice...and for some, a choice that is made over and over during a lifetime.

I reiterate,
gender identity IS NOT a choice.

before we go any further, let's start with this: it is not my place to come here and tell you that you are wrong and i am right.

i am happy to accept that you're coming to this with all the experience, and i, none.

that said, it would appear that a lot of this discussion in the academic community revolves around "gender identity diosorder" and whether such a diagnosis is helpful, oppressive, or both...which i assume you will find to be familiar ground.

should we look to judith butler for insight on the question of choice?
i know it's controversial, but i'll qoute her nonetheless, just to present a viewpoint that is more useful than mine alone:

"It is important to remember that the specific forms which freedom takes depend upon the social conditions that govern human options at this time. Those who claim that transsexuality is, and should be, a matter of choice, are surely right, and they are right to point out that the various obstacles posed by the psycological and psychatric professions are paternalistic forms of power by which a basic human freedom is being suppressed."

http://books.google.com/books?id=Pepy2_OXEe4C&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=gender+identity,+choice&source=bl&ots=b3q6oCCrWp&sig=0jPjxjvLmjtDy9Ovig5gGqTU57A&hl=en&ei=ED1tSuCrAoHCsQPyvJHLDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

sandy stone, of course, offers a few cautions:

"Don't erase our voices by ignoring what we say and write, through gross misrepresentation (as Hausman does to Sandy Stone and to Kate Bornstein), by denying us our academic credentials if we have them (as Hausman does to Sandy Stone), or by insisting that we must have academic credentials if were [sic] are to be taken seriously."

"Be aware that our words are very often part of conversations we're having within our communities, and that we may be participating in overlapping conversations within multiple communities, e.g., our trans communities, our scholarly communities (both interdisciplinary ones and those that are disciplinarily bounded), feminist communities, queer communities, communities of color. Be aware of these conversations, our places within them, and our places within community and power structures. Otherwise, you won't understand our words."

"Don't imagine that there is only one trope of transsexuality, only one figure of "the" transsexual, or only one transsexual discourse at any one temporal and cultural location."

http://www.sandystone.com/hale.rules.html

this has been an exteremly useful discussion--at least for me--and i do indeed appreciate that you've taken the time to walk me through some of this.

over the next couple of weeks or so i'll be preparing a follow-up story that addresses the differing points of view that surround this issue, and i wonder if i might have your permission to reference this discussion in that story?

Do you consciously choose to like or dislike broccoli?  Did you choose your sexual orientation or eye colour?

One cannot "opt in or out" of alignment between the mental and anatomical gender.  They either are congruous or they are not.  One can, in theory, choose whether to transition or not - although for people suffering with acute dysphoria, this may not feel like much of a choice due to their visceral revulsion at their incongruous genital anatomy.

well put.

i'm a brand-new poster at bilerico, and i think over the next few days i'm going to post a synopsis of this discussion there in an effort to bring more voices to the table; the goal being, as i mentioned in the last comment, to form a larger story that tries to get at the question of whether there are two sides to this story...or not.

By the way, kudos to you for entering into a rational discussion on the topic with differing perspectives - wish more netizens were like you

if you don't mind, a comment, and a question:

--love the bouncing elephant.

--can a stupid person think up something so stupid that even they know it's stupid?
(and yes, i do realize i might be risking some form of self-immolation by asking that question at this time and place.)

I think the wrong terms are being used to explain what you want to explain.

Gender identity is who you are.  It's not a choice.  Gender expression is how you choose to express that identity either consciously or unconsciously.  So as a child someone might be a boy, but on the outside look like a girl, and present to the world as a girl, even though he knows deep down he's a boy.  Later on, when he's more in control of his own destiny, he may decide because of a variety of factors to express that identity, and "come out".

biological sex is almost useless as it's used by non-scientists, since what most people mean when they say that is genetalia, which often times is in conflict with chromosomes.  So I think it's worth tossing that term out altogether.  And instead switching the dialouge to the gender identity and gender expression metaphor.  Which I think more aptly explains a greater myriad of transgender people.

For instance, your gender expression does not actually have to line up with your gender identity--and thus crossdressers amongst others in the general queer community. 

But transsexuals are people who are lining their gender identity up with their gender expression, after being forced to have those in opposition because of the state of their genitalia growing up.

i appreciate the compliment--and recognizing that these discussions can potentially be traumatic for those involved, a big thanks to everyone here for being most hospitable--and big thanks to gladys bentley and groucho marx, who got me started down this path of inquiry.

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Post Merge: July 27, 2009, 03:31:55 AM

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when i was doing the reading for this i noted the "layering" of biological sex, and that was an area of much discussion in my original story as well.

matter of fact, i had to study up on my chomosomal knowledge, in as much as i had no idea about xo or "three or more" chomosomal possibilities--and in fact, when i was describing what i had been reading to a biology major who is also my barista she was of the impression that these combinations result in the death of the deveoping fetus, suggesting that even for those aware that there's more to sex than what meets the eye, there's still a lot of ignorance.

Mr. Davis' Bilerico cross-posted blog was listed here last week https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,62473.0.html

Mr. Davis, I know you are not "one of us" and are not totally keyed-into the language many if not most trans-people use within our own small message boards and blogs.

But your heart and mind as an ally or as someone who writes well and supportively of trans-lives is to be commended. Thus I am not going to quibble with how you may have made this or that mis-step were you trans in some shape form or fashion.

I'll merely commend your writing and the fact that you bring something often not seen in  trans-circles to the discussion unless (like Helen Boyd and a few feminist and other writers on the webz) they have spouses or other significant friends who have "educated" them: some education and a lot of understanding and willingness to learn. 

Your two blogs are extraordinarily good and positive and thoughtful, particularly for, or perhaps because of, the fact that you have no irons in the fire except for a good heart, a facile mind and a great ability at communication through writing.

Thanks so much for both pieces. I've been very impressed and appreciative of the story of Gladys Bentley and the piece at Daily Kos.

Nope, no quibbles, just a lot of respect and appreciation. The fake consultant seems to me to be a very excellent "fake."  

Thank you sarah for expressing my thoughts so much better than I. Writing was never my forte.

it was suggested to me that what i should have said to lordkat was that you are free to claim your gender, instead of being forced to live with a gender assignation that does not match your gender.

it seems to me that this suggestion is awfully good, so allow me to modify my earlier statement to reflect this set of terms.

now, a few words to nichole:

i could not thank you enough for the kind words...and i think i found you at facebook, so either you are looking at a friend request...or someone else with your name is scratching their heads wondering exactly what's up.

if i missed you on my first try, can you put a link to your facebook home in another message?

and finally, something for the community at large:

who doesn't love a good laugh?

i have been sharing a video with acquaintences for a few months now that is cracking me up.

someone decided to animate the comedy of eddie izzard with legos, and turn them into short films, and this one is centered on darth vader having a meal at the death star cafeteria.

so once again, thanks for all the welcoming words, i hope i corrected myself in a better way...and watch the video.

trust me when i tell you it's a well-spent three minutes.

Eddie Izzard- Death Star Canteen

it was suggested to me that what i should have said to lordkat was that you are free to claim your gender, instead of being forced to live with a gender assignation that does not match your gender.

I will take that definition. May I suggest you look up definitions as it pertains to this site in the wiki.




and finally, something for the community at large:

who doesn't love a good laugh?

i have been sharing a video with acquaintences for a few months now that is cracking me up.

someone decided to animate the comedy of eddie izzard with legos, and turn them into short films, and this one is centered on darth vader having a meal at the death star cafeteria.

so once again, thanks for all the welcoming words, i hope i corrected myself in a better way...and watch the video.

trust me when i tell you it's a well-spent three minutes.

The video was very funny. Thanks for sharing.

i appreciate the suggestion, and i am beginning to consider how i would write a story that explains to my readers that the queer community and the trans community are not always in perfect alignment--that instead, there are overlaps, but also tensions between the two communities.

the wiki here, as well as the posts and comments, will be extremely helpful, i suspect, as i start to put that together.

(i do a lot of legal analysis stories as well, and before that i'll be doing an analysis of fundamental rights as it relates to loving v virginia, so all this is still a week or two away.)

between now and then, if there's anything else you think i should be looking at, please don't hesitate to let me know.