Whenever anyone talks about their sexual orientation fluctuating (or outright changing) during transition, it's much more often a trans woman talking than a trans man. They say that women's sexuality is more fluid... I wonder, is this just the nature of estrogen versus testosterone? Or, that having been socialized as male, trans women are conditioned from an early age to be masculine and attracted to other women, and there is more pressure to repress anything that deviates from that? While, on the other hand, trans men socialized as female are allowed more freedom to have explored/accepted their orientation before an actual physical transition... Hormones or Upbringing? Some combination of the two? Thoughts?

Hmmm... it could be several things.

For instance, we know that a bio women's sexuality is supposedly fluid, no matter what the orientation is, her brain will still be stimulated. And hormones play a part in our brains, especially with how we experience sexuality, and we know that going by the same studies that bio men tend not to be fluid.

So I'm going to wager it's a hormone thing and I've also noticed that it tends to be more so people who are unsure of their sexuality.

Whatever it is, I hope mine doesn't change. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just that I like my preferences the way they are.

I may be categorized as a straight m2f crossdresser. But I think my sexuality as a woman has been oppressed. Although I am atrracted to women, in retrospect, I once fell in love with one or two men, but it never lasted long. I was not so much homophoic at that time, but what could I do with a man? Marriage is simply impossible.

I am not quite sure whether I am a man or a woman in term of sexual orientation. I did not enjoy much much sex with woman. With man? I still do not know what I can do. At my age, I prefer platonic love with some men, but it would be easily called friendship. When some men hug me, I feel as if I am a woman. I want to be comfirmed to be a woman by the man, but he usually refuses it.

My short answer to the question is that my sexual orientation as a woman always has been opporessed and never expressed or developed fully.  I could love both man and woman, but I have been educated and oriented to love women. Still, I am more sexually atrracted to women.

Barbie~~

It just people letting what they always wanted to happen, happen.  Drugs do not change your sexuality.  Only your being so picky about it.

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2009, 02:19:13 AM
It just people letting what they always wanted to happen, happen.  Drugs do not change your sexuality.  Only your being so picky about it.

There is probably some truth to this statement, at least for many.  But I wouldn't say it's an absolute.  I've noticed since starting T that while my orientation hasn't changed, many of my perceptions about sex have.  And that those perceptions shift back and forth as my T levels shift.  In transitioning, I'm coming to realize that a hell of a lot more is controlled by hormones than I ever thought.

Personally, mine was like Tekla said, I finally allowed myself to open up to the idea. As it changed before I was on anything, it stands to reason they were not a factor.

However, some have reported that they were somewhat bi before hormones and once on hormones those tendencies went away becoming totally hetero until they went back off hormones for a short time. So they do help to some extent it would seem. Hormones can do some amazing things, but change your basic way of thinking I think is asking a bit much.

Quote from: Monty on July 26, 2009, 01:57:17 AM
So I'm going to wager it's a hormone thing and I've also noticed that it tends to be more so people who are unsure of their sexuality.

Hunh. I was thinking exactly the opposite, that maybe it's not at all hormonal. But all I have is anecdotal evidence--and it's purely subjective. I've heard quite a few trans folks say that transitioning freed them up to explore the "natural" proclivities that they had been suppressing. For example, before I started transition, I sort of clung to the idea that I had a minimal (like, .1%) sexual attraction to women. I figured that if I met the right woman, maybe something could happen--but the chances of finding such a woman were minuscule at best. Two or three months into HRT, I realized that I had zero sexual attraction to women. Now I think that the extremely minimal bisexuality was merely a way for me to deny my transness but still maintain some form of marginal queer identity.

It is worth noting that only recently have I begun to differentiate between finding someone physically attractive and finding him or her sexually attractive. And even while I aspired to a laughable model of bisexuality, the thought of actually going to bed with a woman really made my skin crawl. I'm just wired the other way, that's all.

I agree with Tekla.  Your orientation doesn't change on hormones, just how repressed you are about it.  That in concert with being out I think does sometimes also open up people about their sexuality, and as the original poster said, there's perhaps greater societal pressures growing up as a boy, to be straight or at least act that way--so when you come out it kind of suddenly makes it okay to like boys too.  Something like that.

I tend to roll my eyes at transwomen who say that hormones in and of themselves changed their orientation.  That excuse might work for your mother, but I don't buy it.

You don't just suddenly flip your orientation.  If you like boys now, you've always liked them.  Deal.  With.  It.

Quote from: Arch on July 26, 2009, 03:11:38 AM
Hunh. I was thinking exactly the opposite, that maybe it's not at all hormonal. But all I have is anecdotal evidence--and it's purely subjective. I've heard quite a few trans folks say that transitioning freed them up to explore the "natural" proclivities that they had been suppressing. For example, before I started transition, I sort of clung to the idea that I had a minimal (like, .1%) sexual attraction to women. I figured that if I met the right woman, maybe something could happen--but the chances of finding such a woman were minuscule at best. Two or three months into HRT, I realized that I had zero sexual attraction to women. Now I think that the extremely minimal bisexuality was merely a way for me to deny my transness but still maintain some form of marginal queer identity.

It is worth noting that only recently have I begun to differentiate between finding someone physically attractive and finding him or her sexually attractive. And even while I aspired to a laughable model of bisexuality, the thought of actually going to bed with a woman really made my skin crawl. I'm just wired the other way, that's all.

It's just thinking out loud, really. I'm not sure if I really believe it is a hormonal thing, considering even that bit of research is probably not conclusive and I haven't read into it enough to know if it was a hormonal thing. But at the same time, I could see how hormones could influence.

lesbians have female hormones too though, and they are not attracted to men.  so how does it make sense that it's female hormones?

Or vice versa.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on July 26, 2009, 03:30:12 AM
lesbians have female hormones too though, and they are not attracted to men.  so how does it make sense that it's female hormones?

Or vice versa.

Eh, like I said, I'm not sure I believe it, but I could see how going on HTR might do something as it changes how we experience our sexuality, therefore we learn something about ourselves we didn't before. In that way, I think it could.

There are tests out there that go on about testosterone levels with lesbians and transmen, but they are not conclusive and therefore I'm not sure how much merit they have, so I'm not going to delve into that.

I also must express skepticism about it being down to hormone therapy.  I think it's far more likely that the act of transition makes one more comfortable with a sexual orientation that has probably always been there.

A particular example would be the "I didn't like men until I was a woman" example I've seen a few times.  If one has the "wrong gender brain" which is incongruous with ones body *before* HRT, why would sexual orientation change with the commencement of HRT?  Doesn't make sense....surely the person in the example was *already* a woman, just in a man's body.

That's not to say hormones can't be a factor because they do influence sexual arousal and response etc. but I am far from convinced they're the fulcrum of sexual orientation.

Scientists have found that a woman's preferred type of guy changed depending on their hormone cycle. During their most fertile time they prefer ruff and scruffy (dangerous or more masculine) men, and during non sexual peak times they preferred a more family oriented guy (safe/nice guy or less masculine). So it is possible to slightly alter some preferences. Sometimes that may be enough to make things shift the rest of the way maybe.

The full effect of hormones on the human brain hasn't quite been fully studied.

Quote from: Arch on July 26, 2009, 03:11:38 AM
Hunh. I was thinking exactly the opposite, that maybe it's not at all hormonal. But all I have is anecdotal evidence--and it's purely subjective. I've heard quite a few trans folks say that transitioning freed them up to explore the "natural" proclivities that they had been suppressing. For example, before I started transition, I sort of clung to the idea that I had a minimal (like, .1%) sexual attraction to women. I figured that if I met the right woman, maybe something could happen--but the chances of finding such a woman were minuscule at best. Two or three months into HRT, I realized that I had zero sexual attraction to women. Now I think that the extremely minimal bisexuality was merely a way for me to deny my transness but still maintain some form of marginal queer identity.

It is worth noting that only recently have I begun to differentiate between finding someone physically attractive and finding him or her sexually attractive. And even while I aspired to a laughable model of bisexuality, the thought of actually going to bed with a woman really made my skin crawl. I'm just wired the other way, that's all.

do you get off looking at women but not touching?

I don't believe hormones can shift your sexuality either.  Maybe as an earlier poster commented they can make it seem more acceptable to yourself to be attracted to the sex you are attracted to ie: post transition some trans men feel that it is ok to be with girls now as they wil be perceived as straight which is supposedly "normal"  but attraction in my book is something you can't help.
Maybe when people start hormones they become more comfortable with themselves and thus they are more open to exploring sides of themselves that they were more closed to before.

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2009, 04:20:26 AM
do you get off looking at women but not touching?

Not really. What I mean is, I can appreciate a beautiful/attractive woman (and I admire the look of a number of women who don't look like movie stars) but have absolutely no sexual attraction to her. There might be a sexual element there that I've absorbed from the culture...I guess in a way I'm objectifying women, seeing them as sex objects, perceiving them through an imagined (or learned?) lens of hetero male perspective. So I'm coming from "look but don't touch," but I don't get sexually excited at the sight of these women or the thought of them. And I don't fantasize about them or anything like that.

No, it's more like, "Barbara Stanwyck sure is gorgeous, but I wouldn't want to have sex with her." (Of course, I'm not into necrophilia, either.)

Quote from: Virginia Marie on July 26, 2009, 04:48:21 AM
I was raised mainly by my mom and two sisters. I grew up thinking like a woman.

I don't believe in that study.

I know plenty of guys (lots of guys in poverty) who grew up with women and they turn out to be "normal" straight guys.

Quote from: Arch on July 26, 2009, 04:58:26 AM
Not really. What I mean is, I can appreciate a beautiful/attractive woman (and I admire the look of a number of women who don't look like movie stars) but have absolutely no sexual attraction to her. There might be a sexual element there that I've absorbed from the culture...I guess in a way I'm objectifying women, seeing them as sex objects, perceiving them through an imagined (or learned?) lens of hetero male perspective. So I'm coming from "look but don't touch," but I don't get sexually excited at the sight of these women or the thought of them. And I don't fantasize about them or anything like that.

No, it's more like, "Barbara Stanwyck sure is gorgeous, but I wouldn't want to have sex with her." (Of course, I'm not into necrophilia, either.)

Maybe culture, maybe not.

The human body is a beautiful thing, male or female, and it is indeed sexual. I don't think finding someone to be attractive necessarily means objectifying unless that is what you are indeed doing.

I do not think hormones dominate a persons sexual desires. I have always been bi-curious and definitely have found myself much more attracted to some men. Within the last several years men seem to attract me more than before. Maybe it's because some are attracted to me and I'm a vain bitch and trollop. Who knows. Sexual preferences seem to change as we mature which is a never ending process until we die. Love and lust are two different aspects of a relationship. We can love and respect someone and have no desire to jump in bed with them. Sex for some may include all kinds of activites and gender may have nothing to do with it. In the end are we talking about love and respect or a few moments pleasure?
Joke: The difference between True Love and herpes. Herpes is forever!

I also agree with Tekla, though if you asked me pre-transition I would have denied it.  My earliest memories of thinking about sex were me as a boy 'on top.'  I never thought about having sex with a woman as a woman.  I had sex with men and married a man -- attracted to men I admired and also a fascination with equipment I lack(ed).  When I first started transition I was very sure I was still attracted to men -- but now that I'm perceived as male pretty much by everyone I can't see myself in a relationship with a man, though I wouldn't rule sex out with the right one.  But I am very obviously attracted to and turned on by women.  Now that I am my true self, I can be true to myself.  Now the trick is to find a woman who will have me!



Jay