I have yet to see any organization that does not need funds to operate.  Do you really think that all of the money that clergy solicit goes into their pockets?  That may be true with some of those idiotic fundie big name pseuso spiritual leaders.  But the truth is that in most churches the percentage of the budget that goes to salaries is minuscule.  And yes, I have seen the budget of quite a few churches.

Last night I was in a restaurant with my family.  There was a group of cross-dressers there, drunk and noisy.  At one point they started dancing and one of them jumped up on the table, IMHO making a total A$$ of "herself."  The manager came over, gave them the check, and asked them to pay it and leave.  They tried to run out and say that they that they did not have to pay.  Security finally came over and settled it down.  To say that people definitely left with a bad impression of all cross-dressers is the understatement of the year.

Therefore, all transgendered people are obnoxious drunken cheapskates.  If there are any exceptions, they are completely irrelevant.

If this conclusion offends you, if you think that is an unfair leap, if you find yourself wishing those CDs would not give our whole community a bad name, if you think that those who would come to such conclusion are totally ignorant of the full range of the facts, then you will have some idea of how it feels to be on the receiving end of all of this.  I don't expect anyone to care, but at least you have been told.

Kristi

Kristi and everyone,

I'd like to call for calm. Knowing Julie like I know her, she did not mean to attack the Bible itself nor the majority of ministers or elders or servants. I believe she is simply frustrated by the onslaught against many of us in the LGBT community by a few out-spoken leaders. They obviously believe that they are correctly interpreting the Bible and saying that what we are as people(differently gender or sexuality orientated)is a wrong and sinful choice. The extreme we see is with the Exodus leaders who try repairative therapy on vulnerable teenagers who are simply caught in the middle of pleasing their parents and Church, and forcing to subliminate or disavow their known orientation. It was the Mormon and Catholic leaders in California, along with FOTF that used the power of the pulpit to help make Prop 8 a victory on the West Coast. So, yes, words by those who don't live our lives do make a difference.

That said, I have known some ministers and priests in my experience who are great social and spiritual servants who are overworked and underpaid. It is unfortunate, however, that as an LGBT person, I have to carefully seek out a church home that is accepting and non-condeming of me. Raised as a Catholic, I cannot in good faith walk back into a church that is so noninformed and intolerant of me as a transperson. To the best of my knowledege, only the UCC Church has made public thier openess for having gays and lesbians join their church. There may be others, but I haven't seen it promoted as such.

To Kristi's point about people judging all trans people by a few drunk idiots- I hope not. Likewise, don't jump to the conclusion that I'm like some foolish gender confused, attention seeking transperson on Jerry Springer.

Most of us lead very normal, boring lives. And gladly so.

Why does anyone get all too wrapped up in anything? Maybe they are searching.

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
[...]
If this conclusion offends you, if you think that is an unfair leap, if you find yourself wishing those CDs would not give our whole community a bad name, if you think that those who would come to such conclusion are totally ignorant of the full range of the facts, then you will have some idea of how it feels to be on the receiving end of all of this.  I don't expect anyone to care, but at least you have been told.

Thank you Kristi for making an important point.

The "golden rule" in debating an issue on religion is to stick to the issue itself.  If one disagrees, attack the idea - not the individual with a differing view.  If you do, you've just lost the debate de facto.

Religious beliefs are a *very* personal thing, so it's always an emotive issue.  Even the most coolly rational and levelheaded of us will bridle when our viscerally held beliefs are challenged.

Unless it's a purely academic discussion about the texts themselves, a debate about the bible is *always* secondary to some more fundamental debate, i.e. antipathy for the religion itself, the acts & beliefs of the followers and/or their interpretation of the scriptures, etc..  I can count the number of rational, dispassionate discussions about the bible in and of itself on the fingers of one hand.

An interesting discussion about religion can be had, and there are certainly enough bright people here to do so.  For example, we could discuss the origins of religion, or the philosophical relevance thereof on issues of morality - or even the division of church and state; secularism vs. theocracy.

But always remember the golden debating rule...

...attack the ideas, not the individual.

Thank you Julie2.  I have been wondering how I might enter this thread.  I am starting to get a reputation as anti-Christian.  That is far from the truth.

I do not hate ALL Christians.  I am only upset with those who use the bible as a weapon against those who are not the same.  It was used by the Catholic Church during Inquisition to trying and convicting heretics , during the Salem "Witch Trials", the pro-slavery movement, the Nazi party.  The Klan uses it, Neo-Nazis' use it.   This does not mean that I think that the radical elements of Christianity are comparable to the Nazi party.  But I have studied and even preached the bible, leading many to Christ.  When it is boiled down, there are some really good basic ways to live one's life.  Through love and charity. 

But one thing that most will not understand is that Jesus said;


Basically, Christ said that everything that was stated in the Old Testament is null and void through Him.  So anything that is taught, from the Old Testament, in His name as fact is untrue.  And anything after the Gospels is hearsay, or what others are saying He or God said.  Even the Gospels are only eyewitness or second-hand versions of what Christ said or did.

So what is being "So Wrapped Up In The Bible" really saying?  People use it as a means of justifying their faith.  But faith is by believing in something that can not be proven.  Does electricity exist?  How do you know?  Stick your tongue one a 9 volt battery?  Does that prove the it exist?

The bible is the most misquoted piece of literature that ever existed. 

In Exodus 22:18 it is written "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."  But in the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse. 

The term "Wicca" is has been twisted in so many ways that most think it means wicked.  But it did not exist till 1954 when Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, popularized it.

A true practitioner of the "Wiccan" belief system, understand the rule of Three.  "What even you cast out (i.e. Preform or active a spell ) will come back to you three-fold.   Cast evil and you will get evil back three times as bad.  And a pentagram represents the human form and the five elements. "The One" ( or a supreme spirit ), Earth, Wind, Fire and Water.  Upside down pentagram and the inverted cross are twisted version of the First Church of Satan.  And just as any faith can have it's "twisted" followers.  And only a handful practice the "Black" acts. 

Every practitioner of Wicca will name the Goddess and God, with a name that means something to them.  That personal connection to the gods.  And I know that many will think I am evil, but again it is the personal connection.  For me, only the Goddess is called "Isis", and the God is "Jesus".  Am I heading my bets?  Personally I don't care what you think.  It is the personal connection to my gods.  And "The One", that supreme spirit, is called simply called "God".

If all Christians would follow Christ's teachings then there would be no conflict.


Do you Get So Wrapped Up In The Bible, that you are blinded by the teaching of Christ.  The bible is open to interpretation.  A personal interpretation.  Not what someone else tells you.

Someone once told me that "All jews are condemed to go to hell".

Me: "All jews?"

Them: "Yes, Every one of them that have ever be born"

Me: " Even Jesus?"

Them: "Jesus wasn't a jew!"

Me: " You better go back to the Bible and reread it.  Jesus was Jewish or of Judea."

Them: " No he wasn't !"

Me: "Reread his genealogy"

The person in question was a devote Catholic.

Janet

Why do so many always seem to confuse dogma and faith/religion? More often than not the two are incongruent. It seems to be human nature to try and divide and conquer, to compartmentalize, to affix labels... and I guess politics and religion bring out the worst.

Even the phrase "bible thumper" or "bible belt" is to take a history book and ascribe every bad human traits and behavior to its contents. And why? Because those that would act in a cruel or deceitful manner tend to rile us up.

Seems to me that clergy are really no different than politicians. They need to put a spin on there particular brand of beliefs, and if selling FUD will do that then so be it. But Im not going to get my panties in a twist over the musings of some relgious huckster anymore than I will argue about the democrats vs republicans. Im not saying they dont have any [in]direct affect on our lives. But to [mis]quote a saying that could start its own debate...

"the bible doesnt kill, people kill"

I think you get the idea....

Oh, and insofar as the myriads of debates, misquotes, and wrong translations and the hullubaloo that they spark? You think the bible is bad? You've obviously never seen trekkies argue over the star trek timeline! 

Quote from: Kristi on August 01, 2009, 09:48:43 PM
those idiotic fundie big name pseuso spiritual leaders

That's exactly who I am talking about.  I just couldn't find a simple, eloquent way to describe them.  Thank you for doing so!  Now all we need is a good acronym.

When they raise the Bible up and proclaim the intolerance they preach is supported by "this book" throngs flock to support them because of their unquestioning faith in the Bible.  And that's what baffles me.  The vast majority of these people are good, decent, honest human beings yet they don't stop and ask themselves why the "idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leader" is preaching intolerance, encouraging discrimination and spreading fear.  Once that book is presented as "proof" all questions cease.

While we can only live in the present, we can learn from the past. When we look into the past we see people swayed by slick tongued, self appointed leaders to perform sometimes horrific acts.  Why would anyone in today's world allow themselves to be sucked into anything like this?  I just don't get it.

Yes, Kristi, there are countless good and decent clergy out there but you rarely see them in the media.  And that's unfortunate because they could do a lot more good if it was their message being told rather than the idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leaders.  (I just gotta come up with an acronym for that!) 

Julie

You think the bible is bad? You've obviously never seen trekkies argue over the star trek timeline!

Yeah, but there are a couple of key differences. One is that trekkies are aware that the timeline was written by humans, and its fiction.  For many people, the Bible has a different deal going on, it's learning religion straight from God, and kid's that a whole different world.

Because in that, I don't care how much you want to believe Star Trek, there is no call to any action, save bugging the Federal Government for more money for NASA. But everything in the Bible is a call to action.  The Bible does not wish, implore or suggest you act in certain ways, it demands it, straight from God's lips to your ears as they say.

Even though a solid rational science-based agnostic, or perhaps because of it, I had my kids read the Bible*, or at least parts of it as per my 'suggestions' - OK I didn't suggest, I forced them to do it.  So we would read, and discuss, and read again (like any good reader would) the parts I felt were the most valid/meaningful/critical.  I felt it was important for three reasons.  One, its the foundation of Western Literature, and if you don't know those words/ideas your going to be profoundly at a loss when it comes to comprehending literature. So when some writer says their character is going through 'the trials of Job' your not going to be able to comprehend that until, or unless you read the Book of Job. I don't think anything ever written addresses suffering and the nature of evil like the Book of Job does. Moreover, its critical to talking about the notion: "Is misfortune always a divine punishment"?  Something I wanted to talk to my kids about.

And I could go on about why I wanted them to read Genesis, Exodus, and why Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy not so much.  I always like Ruth, Ester and Danial, so we did those.  And we did the history ones - because part of the bible is pretty much not about god, but a history of the Israelite people, so Kings and Chronicles. And we would skip around to a few other stories.  And I would put particular stress on Psalms, Ecclesiastics, Proverbs and the Song of Solomon and Lamentations as they are so perfect in the poetics

Only then, when we had finished the Old stuff would we move to the New.  And in that, only the Gospels.  Matthew and John in full, Mark and Luke in parts. (Mark and Luke can't hold a candle to Matthew and John as writers - although I find Luke to be the most credible of the four). 

I never had them read the Acts and Letter, especially Paul.  I hate Paul.  Paul sucks. Paul was the first in a long line of people stretching to the present day who completely and utterly missed the point. (He was also the first 'convert' giving credence to Nichole's theory about converts being such zealots.)

The other thing I did, which several people have though was slightly weird - others understand the true brilliance of it - is that the bibles in my house had the Revelation of John (the Apocalypse in the Catholic bibles I used) cut out of them. I did not want my kids to read that anytime before they had finished college, preferably not until they had finished their PhDs and could arm themselves against the most dangerous and deadly book ever written.

No book ever written has been more dangerous than this one.  Dangerous to others, and dangerous to the reader.  For anyone who thinks that books are just words and are not dangerous, I would offer up the Revelation of John as a pretty good reason why some books ought to be banned, or at least kept under very strict control.

And, its not because it's bad, hell no.  Only the Song of Solomon had a better writer.  In terms of Literature, nothing else compares to the Revelation of John in its vision (and oh boy was he seeing visions), its style, its increadible use of symbolism, and its end message.  I doubt that any work ever done in any language save the Tao Te Ching has as many possible meanings as the Revelation.  It has as many meanings as it has readers.  Which is what makes it dangerous.  Where meaning in the Tao is largely good - contemplating your existence and how you work with the world rather than against it - the meaning of John is the most horrible blood soaked death trip ever. It is profoundly negative.

A bunch of people were having a discussion about the most horrible thing you could ever do to anyone, and they had thought up some pretty horrible stuff, real gruesome, real mean, incredibility complex but I won with my simple idea. If I really hated someone, I mean really hated them I'd give them a massive dose of pure lysergic acid diethylamide-25, and lock them in a room with nothing but the Book of Revelations. They would either kill themselves, or come out and kill everyone else. Either way, they would be out of their mind, insane crazy forever.

David Koresh's Branch Davidians in Waco Texas, that's the Book of Revelations at work. Why did that whole Waco deal go down like it did?  Because they were either going to die, or they were going to go on a killing spree, and I think that's why the government acted as they did (I would have suggested a different tactic, but even then I think the end result would have been the same).  Why?  Because if you read it, and believe it - then nothing matters.  Nothing.  Nothing you do, or ever can do, is going to change the end as it is written, and as its written the end is nothing you want to be around for. But written it is, and that's the way it is.  There is a finality to Revelations, perhaps the final finality that makes all of life pointless and meaningless. Which in turn, makes it very dangerous. 

Anyway, point is, everyone does with the Bible what I did with my kids.  Take what they like and ignore the rest. I'm just being upfront about it.





* I did not "home school" my kids, though I could have as a trained teacher with a doctorate, but instead I let the school handle the standard stuff, and I would work on the more important stuff, like natural science (taught in the Jeffersonian manner) and Literature, taught in the old school way of reading, thinking, talking and reading again. Amazing how much time kids have for you to fill when there is no TV.

QuoteLast night I was in a restaurant with my family.  There was a group of cross-dressers there, drunk and noisy

What kind of restaurants do you go to? I would have immediately removed my family and never returned to that part of town.

What kind of restaurants do you go to? I would have immediately removed my family and never returned to that part of town.  Sounds like my kind of place, worth checking out at any rate, and hey, you didn't have to pay extra for the entertainment like you do at the places I work at.

QuoteSounds like my kind of place

I do not care to be involved in entertainment . One reason not to live in cities.

Oh I lived in rural areas for a long time and they are plenty entertaining, they are just not professionals at it, and it tends to always involve guns or gasoline.

Kristi,

Your analogy is not accurate.  The leadership of the church is urging their followers.

Rev. Wiley Drake
Openly prays to God to kill Obama and quotes Psalm 109 as his reason. He states that Southern Baptists know about this practice of "Imprecatory Prayers" He says Dr. Tiller's death was an answer to his prayer.

Pope Benedict XVI   http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1868390,00.html
"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from transsexual behavior is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction."
"the Vatican has announced its opposition to a United Nations proposal to protect gays from being criminalized and punished by governments for their orientation"

Methodist Judicial Council To Rule On The Sin of ->-bleeped-<-
http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of-->-bleeped-<-.htm

Pat Robertson spouting off about Barack Obama's announcement of a "Presidential Memorandum on Federal Benefits and Non-Discrimination" asked "someone's proud to be transgendered?
http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of-->-bleeped-<-.htm

"I am aware that Rev Robertson helped start and the American Center for Law and Justice, (http://www.aclj.org/) the leadership of the Christian Coalition. They have been known to be 'transphobic' and 'honophobic'. The words of Jay Sekulow, 'Chief Justice' of the ACLJ have been pointed out to me again where it was stated regarding the Gardiner decision in Kansas: "this is the first shot across the bow in the war against the scourge known as transsexuality."
http://www.intersexualite.org/PatRobertson.html

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blame gays and lesbians among others for God's allowing 9/11 to happen.
Falwell and Robertson on The 700 Club after 9/11

Pat Robertson says God allowed Katrina because of abortion. Quotes Leviticus.
Katrina = God's Wrath

John Hagee says Katrina is because Gays were going to hold a rally in New Orleans.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/hagee-katrina-mccain/

Church Rejects Transsexual's Care
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401408.html

"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from transsexual behavior is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction."

However, since the RCC has done pretty much nada on saving the rain forests I'd assume that caring about transsexuals is pretty much #16 on their list of top 10 things to do.

And Maggie, you just highlighted why so many LGBT people don't like the christian leaders.  It's for the same kind of thing that caused so many Jews to hate Germans, they wanted to wipe them out.

These outspoken christian leaders spew out words that are tantamount to encouraging their followers to wipe out LGBT people.  And they use the words written in the Bible to do it.

Now I think most of us would have had a thing or two to say to the unruly, drunken CDs Kristi saw because that's not how we want to be seen.  So maybe if the majority of religious leaders, the ones not seen in the media, would take those idiotic fundie big name pseudo spiritual leaders to task we could all start to get along.

One thing I do know, until you have your inalienable rights taken away from you, until you've been discriminated against for being trans, until you watch the people you love and trust turn their back on you when they find out you're trans, you have no idea how damaging people like the ones highlighted in this thread can be to your life.  Because you will hear the same kind of intolerance from them as you do these "religious leaders".

Here's the acid test: Go to your church leader and tell them you are TG, TS, CD, whatever and watch their reaction.  And also include your sexual orientation.  How they respond will tell you what the real relationship you have with them is.

Julie

I sometimes think of going back to a church because I did find some comfort there and spiritual illumination but not knowing how I will be treated or if I will sit there to hear an anti LBGT sermon makes it impossible.  I might just get up in the middle of the sermon and walk out. Then I worry if someone in the congregation will target me.  Paranoid maybe but for a good reason.

If for a moment we don't realize that there isn't an active push to convert the population to conservative christian doctrine, consider this:

I found a reference to a new movement called Monvee to be unveiled in early 2010.  It will be a standardized database of the participants spiritual growth and beliefs. Apparently it will be announced by Rick Warren and also on Robertson's 700 club.  Targeted evangelism based on the result of the database will be conducted.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2009/7/26/12839/4303/Diary/Monvee_Profiles_of_the_Mega_churched_

The goals are to bring everyone up to a consistent level of belief and also to use the demographics collected for political action.

And for those who think having a "Christian Nation" is a good thing:
http://mythandhope.blogspot.com/2008/04/hitlers-values-and-christian-right.html

It tears my heart that the Christian church is being like this.  I believe that there are congregations that are as Kristi says but when I see things like I have posted, I wonder how long it will be before they are swept away by the much larger and more motivated movements aligned against us.

Wagner, like his pals Hayford and McGuire is real tin foil hat time. That they are almost insane crazy, (oh, don't believe me?  Try this notion from Wagner that he used to explain his theory: the nation of Japan was collectively demonized, and the Japanese economy undermined, because the Japanese emperor had sexual relations with a territorial demon called the Sun Goddess who, Wagner speculates, may be a succubus. Convinced now?) does not detract from how dangerous they are, not only to themselves and their true believers, but to all of us. 

I like what Hitchens said of Falwell after the latter's demise...
   "It's a shame there's no hell for Falwell to go to..."

The Bible is many things to many people.  It is not contiguous and it can be very confusing. But that comes with the nature of its existence.  It is the culmination of many writers covering some 6 to 7 hundred years.

There are three major faiths based on the Old Testament in the Bible.  They include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Many people don't know this.

I have studied the Bible, both from its texts, and historical perspective.  I can guarantee you that I'll probably not agree with too many here on what it is and what it means.

But there is one passage that is very meaningful to me in the New Testament and it is so simple to understand.  In an attempt to catch Jesus on a point of doctrine, he was asked to point out the most important commandment. Now, the Jews of the time (oh and let us not forget that Jesus was a Jew) were really big into sacrifices, blood letting, and all sorts of really interesting commandment following.  It would be all too easy for Jesus to say one thing and then have his tempters trump him with something else.

Now let me paraphrase since I don't have my "good book" handy.  "And Jesus answered unto them saying, "the first and greatest commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself. And from these come forth all other commandments"". Here was something that had never been said, made perfect sense, and would likely make any Pharisee or Sadducee want to put their foot in their mouth.

So, the principal teaching of Jesus is Love.   And let me be the heretic here and throw in charity and grace.   For how can you show true love without them?  Have you ever met someone who will share their last bit of food with you, knowing not where the next will come from?  I have.... and as a total stranger at that.  I was truly humbled.

So, from that one bit of scripture and various interactions with truly loving people, I have based my life.  In my opinion, the rest of the many books in the tome are a matter of academic study. Much can be gained in Jewish history, gospel doctrine, etc. but I'll stick to the love angle. It's far easier to manage.

Unfortunately, the Jews and the Muslims didn't get this tidbit in their versions of the holy scriptures.  BUT, it matters not.  Many who follow the New Testament totally gloss over it.

And that, in very brief terms, is my summation of the library of books that have come to be known as the Bible.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on August 02, 2009, 07:32:43 PM
But there is one passage that is very meaningful to me in the New Testament and it is so simple to understand.  .......for Jesus to say one thing and then have his tempters trump him with something else.....  "And Jesus answered unto them saying, "the first and greatest commandment is to love thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength. The second is like unto it, to love thy neighbor as thyself. And from these come forth all other commandments"". Here was something that had never been said, made perfect sense, and would likely make any Pharisee or Sadducee want to put their foot in their mouth.

So, the principal teaching of Jesus is Love.   And let me be the heretic here and throw in charity and grace.   For how can you show true love without them?  Have you ever met someone who will share their last bit of food with you, knowing not where the next will come from?  I have.... and as a total stranger at that.  I was truly humbled.

Cindi

On this we are quite agreed, sweet sister.

Kristi