Maslow's hierarchy of needs includes:
1. Biological needs.Water, food, elimination, warmth, rest, avoidance of pain, sexual
release, and so forth.

2. Safety needs. Protection from the physical and social environment by means of
clothing, housing, and security from crime and financial hardship.

3. Love and belongingness needs. Love and acceptance through intimate relationships,
social groups, and friends. Maslow believed that in a well-fed and wellhoused
society, a principal source of maladjustment lay in the frustration of needs
at this level.

4. Esteem needs. Achievement, competence, approval, recognition, prestige, status.

5. Self-actualization. Personal growth, the development of our unique potentials. At
the highest level are also found needs for cognitive understanding (as found in
novelty, understanding, exploration, and knowledge) and aesthetic experience (as
found in order, music, poetry, and art).

Is it esteem?
Is it self-actualization?
Is it safety?
Is it in with our most base physiological needs?
Where does it fit you think?

Finding the level is best done by considering what you would sacrifice.  I would hazard level 2 for the acutely dysphoric, level 3+ for others depending on how much psychological pressure one feels from the anatomical incongruity.

Reasoning: you wouldn't sacrifice food, water etc. for transition.   People can, and do, risk their jobs, financial well-being and safety in the social environment (level 2) although Maslow was still more on the physical rather than psychological aspect at this level.

The reason I say "acutely dysphoric" is that much of the tension and depression folks may feel is wrestling between their dysphoria and their needs at level 3 & 4...which can be in conflict.

I think it could really be on any level except the bottom two. Love/belonging because the transitioner will want to be accepted as normal (a normal man rather than an abnormal woman). The esteem level perhaps more frequently for FTMs for obvious reasons, but I could be wrong. Transitioned individuals are likely more comfortable and feel accomplished and have higher self esteem.

The top for the mere fact that the goal of the top is to realize one's identity.

SilverFang

Do people still think in terms of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?  That seems so Sixties. And hey, as I recall, sex is on level one, and I sure read a lot of stuff in here that deals with sex and sexual problems, and sexual identity, so I'd say, Level One.  The higher you go, the less likely it seems.  Is not the top level, in part an acceptance of things as they are?  On the other hand - and its been a few decades since I've read this, the top level, the self-actualization part is all about working on 'becoming who you were meant to be' so that might be true too.

Which is the problem with humanistic psychology, you always have that "on one hand... but on the other hand..." kind of BS, which is why I think the only place they use this stuff anymore is in B-School/Marketing stuff, which is to say "Psychology for Dummies."

Maslow is still part of the "syllabus".  It's just one of a myriad of tools for analysing intrinsic motivation.  The variation between individuals is usually what leads to the "one hand...other hand" nonsense.

The issue Maslow hints at but doesn't really penetrate is the one where motivation starts with "what's in it for me?" and becomes progressively more altruistic once parochial self interests are satisfied.  That's why self-sacrifice is often seen as such a lofty, if not heroic, trait...because it inverts the parochial->altruistic priorities.

Edit to add: Alderfer tried to modify Maslow with ERG but it didn't really make much difference...it just presented the same ideas from a different orientation

I was taught Maslow as part of my management training.  It is very practical and current to this day.  It really helps you set priorities both in the business world and in life.  Though I never agreed that sex and breathing are on the same level.

Anyway I put mine in Safety.

-Sandy

I was taught Maslow as part of my management training.  It is very practical and current to this day.  It really helps you set priorities both in the business world and in life.

See, that's my point.  It's psychology for dummies, or perhaps worse, psychology not as self-understanding or as mental health, but as manipulation.

I had a my own hierarchy when I taught at the university, the hierarchy of students.  On the top of the pyramid were the ROTC people. Day in and day out, year after year, they were the most motivated, dedicated and serious students as a group. I could never talk over their heads. They always had something to contribute to the discussion, and when they didn't understand something, they stopped me and made me explain it.  If I had nothing but ROTC students, I'd still teach. They were followed by the people in science and engineering (though getting the engineers to read anything was like pulling teeth, getting them to really write was harder, but when I would have them do something like, design a mill, they were awesome.)  Liberal arts majors were so-so, either really good, or killing time for 4 years trying to get laid and drinking a lot. The elementary school teachers, well, not the brightest people ever.  But they were always ever so willing to please, they really tried, I'll give them that.  Pleasantly dumb as one of my major professors once described them. But the B-School people.  They are what has made college suck. And now that they are a majority in so many colleges and universities, college life and university life in general, but specifically academically, has gone downhill. A whole lot of the sickness of our current society, focused as it is on the "What's in it for me" notion that lies at the heart of American Business, stems from these people being in charge.  No surprise Bush had an MBA is it?

Look at what happened to our financial system.  I could have predicted it, and I almost knew it was coming because I knew the people I was turning out to run it.  Self-serving to the total exclusion of anyone and everyone else, immediate gratification at the expense of long range planning, dealing and manipulation, focused only on the next quarter (because why bother after that, I'm going to do so well that quarter that I'll be promoted and those problems I created will be for the next chump to solve) they pretty much ran that ship straight into the ground, knowing full well what they were doing.  But hey, they got their bonus, who cares about the rest?

In truth, if a student was lying to me, it was a B-School type.  The ROTC people, never in my experience.  No weak pathetic excuses, no story so convoluted that it had to come from Rube Goldberg, nope, they were straight-up six o'clock. I usually cut the ROTC types a break because at least they were not wasting my time by lying to me. They took the blame, it was never the fault of someone or something else. If the paper was late, its the ROTC people who would tell me that they just didn't get it done (though in truth most of them were smart enough to plan ahead and see ahead and just came in a few days before and got an extension) and not that world somehow conspired to prevent them from getting it done. (Even though I swore I saw them at the bar on Friday night.)

Now, like clergy in another post thread, there are many fine business people in the US and I'm not saying that's all of them.  But B-School's have seemed to attract weasels like iron filings to a magnet.

And they use this, not as Maslow intended, as a self-help tool to assist people in discovering themselves and being all they could be and all that, but as a way to motivate people to do things they really don't want to do. Remember, you never need to motivate people who want to do something in the first place. It tends to be used more to threaten people with level 1 & 2, then to help them achieve 3, 4 & 5.

I chose self-actualization, since transition is a process of developing ourselves into the person we want to be, and ultimately transition is about self-improvement.

Although I would also consider it to be in the basic needs category, along with food/water/etc. because, for many of us, transition really is essential to our very survival.  That doesn't necessarily mean you would sacrifice food and water for transition, but it's right there next to the basic needs.

Quote from: finewine on August 02, 2009, 04:27:59 AM
Reasoning: you wouldn't sacrifice food, water etc. for transition.

And yet how many do starve themselves to come under weight for surgery, or to fit into those jeans.

The fact that so many commit suicide shows the level is more important than a job or family.

As I recall, the basic need one is the things no one can live without. By that m I put transition in that category.

Well Tekla, I DID predict our current economy and divested myself of all my stocks in October of 2007 while the market was at its peak.

I too attended business school after getting my EE.  I thought an MBA would help me professionally. I don't know if it did or not.  But personally, it helped me learn a lot about the mechanics and the personality traits that drive the markets.  If you understand greed, and if you refuse to be tempted by it, you can outplay the bastards every time.

Anyhoo... the Maslow stuff was intriguing to me and IS a very concise if not complete way to understand people.  A Maslow extension is that once your basic needs are met, money is not a motivator.  I've had some serious disagreements with this aspect of it because in some ways I AM very greedy (I'm just not tempted by it).  But in practice, as I've managed engineering teams, I've generally found this to be true.  An award, a pat on the back, a public announcement of someones service above and beyond the call can actually be more of a motivator than a fat raise.

For the survey, I put down for basic needs (physiological).  In my personal case, I had everything I could possibly want. I was not wealthy. But I had a good job, a home, and a beautiful family. However, there came a time when I could not take another breath without moving down the path to transition. Yes, I will admit suicide attempts.  It was a constant thought rumbling round in my mind. How can that lie on anything but life and death status?

Cindi

I put down Love/Belonging because I was able to put off transition for so long.  I was able to suppress my need/desire to transition - actually to redirect it - to accomplish a lot.  At that time I would have said transitioning was Self-Actualization, but once I really started dealing with my gender issues I realized that it was more important to me than that.  I was never suicidal; I was able to fool myself sublimate my issues into a more productive mode.

Like any simplification, Maslow's hierarchy is a useful way of looking things but doesn't cover the full complexity of life.  (And I think Maslow would probably agree with that statement.)

- Kate

Quote from: Fae on August 02, 2009, 04:25:19 PM
for many of us, transition really is essential to our very survival.  That doesn't necessarily mean you would sacrifice food and water for transition, but it's right there next to the basic needs.

Yes, well, I have chosen my T prescription over enough food time and time again.  For the most part, water is free, so not a big issue there.  Gone without some meals to get the prescription filled, and to get the therapy needed for some of the changes, but that's me.  Now it's covered by insurance, which I very much appreciate.

I think i messed up getting into a very appropriate career or job to care for my 'basic needs' because i had not transitioned yet.  i think transitioning at a much younger age would have enabled me to meet basic needs better.  i am still fairly messed up around money, as in, not having enough, and am on disability, partly due to the stresses on every level of waiting to transition.  pretty envious these days of people with more money, working on that. 

joseph

Quote from: Buddhas Camera on August 02, 2009, 11:20:14 PM
Yes, well, I have chosen my T prescription over enough food time and time again.  For the most part, water is free, so not a big issue there.  Gone without some meals to get the prescription filled, and to get the therapy needed for some of the changes, but that's me.  Now it's covered by insurance, which I very much appreciate.

I think i messed up getting into a very appropriate career or job to care for my 'basic needs' because i had not transitioned yet.  i think transitioning at a much younger age would have enabled me to meet basic needs better.  i am still fairly messed up around money, as in, not having enough, and am on disability, partly due to the stresses on every level of waiting to transition.  pretty envious these days of people with more money, working on that. 

joseph

Sorry to hear that Joseph, personally I have chosen food, water, and shelter over my HRT, because you need to have those to be healthy, to transition in the first place.  Luckily they haven't conflicted and I've been able to have both, but I hear you on the money thing, as I'm in the same boat most of the time.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 02, 2009, 05:52:33 PM
And yet how many do starve themselves to come under weight for surgery, or to fit into those jeans.

The fact that so many commit suicide shows the level is more important than a job or family.

I don't know - how many is it?  Do you actually know?

The original question will have a different answer for each person, naturally.  There is no such thing as *the* level.

My thoughts, starting from the bottom.

Quote from: finewine on August 02, 2009, 11:49:02 PM
I don't know - how many is it?  Do you actually know?

The original question will have a different answer for each person, naturally.  There is no such thing as *the* level.

Does the exact numbers matter?
We know it happens.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 03, 2009, 05:38:22 AM
Does the exact numbers matter?
We know it happens.

It was a genuine question, I was curious...and I didn't specify exact (who in their right mind expects zero standard deviation in statistics anyway? ).

Seeing as you ask, well no it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this speculative question.   As I said, there's no such thing as "the" level, as it's inherently variable from person to person (and, indeed, a person can change levels depending on circumstance).

More generally yes it certainly does matter if someone is going to imply statistically significant support for an asserted position.  They really ought to have an idea what they're talking about.  If we aren't reasonably rigorous about such things, we fall victims to FUD very easily.

My inquiry wasn't intended as a personal challenge, you know.

The need to be true to myself and to just BE MYSELF is as basic as breathing, IMO.


Jay

Simple...  If Maslow considered the act of sex to be on the most basic level, then naturally gender is as well.  You must live with your external and internal gender all the time, whereas sex affects one activity with one person at a time.

Personally, having the correct gender is a far more basic need than the act of sex.  I could be asexual and live a totally normal life.  Likewise, placing sex on the same level as breathing is absurd because you die without that, and fast. Then again this hierarchy was developed by a (cis)male, but still com'on, a guy isn't going to fall over dead without sex.

Ignoring that though, I see gender as somewhere between "Physiological" and "Safety".  If transitioning meant immediate execution, then I wouldn't.  Yet if it meant being homeless or jobless, I would be livid, but I'd certainly keep transitioning.