My wife was asking me the other day about crossdressers. It struck her as strange that some crossdressers always refered to their dressed self in the third person (some transexuals do it too) "Anne Marie has not been out for some time" "the first time my family saw melanie..." etc.. She could not understand why they did that when clearly they are the same person..or are they?

It got me wondering why that is, where the duality comes from? It is not like all crossdressers are like this. Take for example Barbie on this site. They seem like a much more integrated crossdresser in that the boundary between being feminine and masculine is very thin and there is no alternative state of being.

I have a number of thoughts. My main feeling is that this seperation of self is a coping/protection mechnism. As a 'man' there is often space in that gender role for varience. The desire to crossdress is counter to this so in order to act out on the femine side there is a need to create a whole new 'female' persona to do it. Related to this I think is the need to stay hidden in secret, so a partitioning of self is like a protection mechnism. I guess my question is if society was more accepting of crossdressing would there still be this seperation of self, would there be this other persona, or would you be a more integrated person? Would you want to be more 'integrated' and by that I mean not have this other persona and be rolled all into one? Is integration a good thing? Or is this seperation actually a significant thing - more kin to being bigendered or having a multiple personality?

Just wondering...

I do try to separate my male self from the cross dressing because of societies attitude. The fact of the matter is society is not ready for me to walk into work in a skirt and sometimes that drives me crazy. In fact there is not much of a desire for me to cross dress at the moment and I wish I could just leave this all behind me but I still feel the need and my brain still likes to see females in skirts. My mind seams to be old fashioned in that respect and I hate it for the way it feels. So I will try and keep Alice under control so I do not get hurt to much.



Alice

"So I will try and keep Alice under control",

I find it facinating you say that instead of "So I will keep my desires under control".
In this case is 'Alice' code for the desire to dress, or who you desire to be whether you want to or not? It makes sence that you would call 'it' a name to distance yourself from the desire if that desire is something you don't want to have. If I am intruding please feel free to ignore me. I'm just really curious. One one hand it seems like a simple thing crossdressing yet when you scratch the surface it seems entirely more complex.

When you are 'Alice' do you talk of your male self in the 3rd person too?

Yeap it is very complex because society says I should not have these desires but they comtimes are very strong. As I said my desire to dress is not that strong at the moment and I have to be carefull to supress it to much. It is funny that lately dressing in female clothes I do not feel that different - I am still the same person and latly beeing feel like a male in a dress. I would like to say when I am Alice I do not talk about Alan as a third person but I am not sure that is true. Purhaps I try and keep the two lives separate hence I talk in that third person language all the time. In any way I am just confused at the moment with everything that has gone on over the last 12 months.

Alice

Thank you for your replies alice. You have had quite a ride over the last 12 months.

you just referred to Alan in the third person in your post...That could be it, you try to keep the two lives seperate.

While I understand why ( I think ) CD's refer to themselves in the third person, I have to admit I find it odd.  Truly, I find it odd when anyone does that.  I do have a different feminine name ( Charlene ) but the person and personality are the same - regardless of presentation.

Charlene

I also want an integrated one, but the society would not allow it. My presentation is a dichotomy.

I sometimes wear men's formal dress even though they know I am a kind of crossdresser. They may think I am ready to take a kind of manly role in my working area, and I may hope that they will think I am serious about my business.

I usualy wear fully when I am with old friends or during weekends.

Barbie~~

I feel that when I am cross-dressed, it really is just another expression of my true self.

But, the name "David" just doesn't seem to go with the presentation. So, I came up with the name Charlotte Alvolte (from the Italian phrase "al volte" meaning "at times") as a play on Charlotte Sometimes. (I first encountered that name as a web address of a photographer, and later found that it was also the title of a song by the Cure, inspired by a story of the same name.)

It is a duality. It's still me. I've thought about changing my first name to something more gender neutral, but I'm not sure if I really want to do that. So, for the time being, I refer to my cross-dressed self by another name.

Im really only Bethany when Im dressed or soon to be.

I haven't read the other replies, figurred i'd give an untainted personal perspective first.

I often refer to my male side in third person by name, i think i mainly do it as a short-hand because saying "the male side of myself" is just too  clumsy. I gave myself another name because i wanted to try and express the identity a little, the third-person bit just kinda happened. I often reffer to my self in third person by my birth name too though, i think i got this habbit from my boyfriend.

I think the habbit of third person tends to lead to a lack of integration though, depending on how the people around me deal with it. Most of my friends are kinda dismissive of it, and i don't mention this side of myself to my family. But i have one friend who humours me, or tries to be a good listener or whatever, he seems to see me as two people, which i don't quite like... especially odd given i haven't quite managed to devise a public face for my male self yet, so far it is only a name.

Quote from: metal angel on August 07, 2009, 07:42:03 AM
I often refer to my male side in third person by name, i think i mainly do it as a short-hand because saying "the male side of myself" is just too  clumsy. I gave myself another name because i wanted to try and express the identity a little, the third-person bit just kinda happened. I often reffer to my self in third person by my birth name too though, i think i got this habbit from my boyfriend.

I think the habbit of third person tends to lead to a lack of integration though, depending on how the people around me deal with it. Most of my friends are kinda dismissive of it, and i don't mention this side of myself to my family. But i have one friend who humours me, or tries to be a good listener or whatever, he seems to see me as two people, which i don't quite like... especially odd given i haven't quite managed to devise a public face for my male self yet, so far it is only a name.

Just FYI.
I am not quite sure in English, but in Korean and Japanese languages, children initially denotes themselves as a third person when they began learning languages at ages 4-6.

For example, they do not say like
"I want an apple".
Instead, they say like
"Emmy wants an apple"
if her name is Emmy.

I also liked to denote myself as a third person (i.e., Barbie), and some people say my articles and messages sound childlike. And, as Korean language is nuance-oriented language, it is very easy to express myself as a young girl in written Korean. Words and styles in spoken Korean are far different between men and women, or between young and aged. Thus, people generally can know whether the writer is a man or a woman. For this reason, I write in female mode, if I want. But, some women do not want to reveal their gender, intentionally writing in male or neutral mode.

Empathy is important for theatical actors or actress, but also for crossdressers. When I write in female mode, my mind also becomes more female one, and vice versa.

Barbie~~

MMM - I used to do this but stopped some time ago (I've just realised that in one of my recent replies on this forum I have done so again)!

I am Annette in my head 24/7 now so I refer to myself as Annette.....

It all boils down to the frequency and social integration of the act.
e.g. those who 'dress' 24/7 and integrate as their femme persona have no need of a 'third person'.
Those who work as male and dress in the evenings or at week ends, but socialise as such have need of the third person most, as they are leading two lives, so to speak.
Those who like me content themselves with thinking about 'it' and only occasionally actually crossdress in total privacy have no need for a third person other than in writing on the internet.  I use my femme name only on the net, and it simply does not exist otherwise.
There are doubtless myriads of shades of persona in between these three examples.

I never do a third person thing, if Kat ever did that, I'd kick her ass.

Quote from: tekla on January 09, 2010, 10:44:52 PM
I never do a third person thing, if Kat ever did that, I'd kick her ass.

I'll second that !

Chrissty

Interesting concept. When involved in a conversation where my male persona is compared to my femme, I will often take the third person narrative position, referring to "Evie does this...", or "Marc does that...". I have never considered in my mind that there was a distinction between the two, and try to correspond as who I am.

I'll have to watch that in the future, thanks for the topic

Evie

For me, referencing myself in the third person would seem too weird. The idea makes me think of the Seinfeld episode where George refers to himself in the third person.

I think that it just helps us to create a femail persona. Its easier to cope with it that way and works better with a female name.

I don't refer to myself in third person because I am simply me. Regardless of the gender I'm presenting in any given circumstance, I am who am I!

When I think about it though, the logistics would be confusing for me. What if I slipped and mentioned the wrong name in the wrong crowd (people I haven't come out to yet)?

me: "So Jasmine was shopping the other da-"
they: "Wait, who?"
me: "Uhh.... I mean... uhh..."

That would be way too much for me to keep track of.

I don't refer to myself in the third person, but I do have multiple reactions to situations that are typically thought of as masculine or feminine. This is particularly true watching an emotional movie scene. I've noticed that often my initial response is somewhat cynical, and I look for the scene's humor rather than the pathos. This response is often followed with a just the opposite reaction, and I find myself pulled into the pathos of the scene.
I observe these two reactions as distinct, and not part of an emotional continuum.   
I suppose the next question is: Who is doing the observing?

It's all so confusing!!!!!!